JKD, Kali and silat

[Jared Davis]

is this the most common occuring combination of arts being taught with JKD? i love the kali and silat, but im more concered with JKD, but it seems its getting harder to find.

[Tim Tackett]

It's too bad but true that many 2nd and 3rd generation JKD teachers don't reall know JKD or it's structure.
Tim

[Tim Tackett]

That should be "really".

[Geoff]

hi tim ....i was looking into different structures and it seems one cant mix water and oil together, because if you do mix the two and set them down you will see they will seperate.
But whats the idea of jkd and silat being mixed as i see it is like having two shapes that are one.forexample....a square if turned around looks like a diamond shape but its still a square.(so is this there idea? because the two structure principles are the same)
mayb like what bruce was saying about the guy who wanted to paint a horse and then a dragon flew by and he started to paint that...then a something else went by and he started to paint that to.
so in the end he was upset because he wanted to paint a horse.. but it was gone.
ps...im not getting into a dabate about the two and i hope im not coming across that way...its just nice to understand the different approaches..

[Tim Tackett]

If you take different martial arts then you have to either:
Learn different structures
Learn different responses to the same stimulus
Practice things that you may never use or don't suit you
Does this mean that you shouldn't look at arts other than JKD?
No it doesn't. Here's how the Wed Night Group looks at it:
At the very least look at other arts delivery systems and if you have a counter for it. If you don't you better get one.
Do you have the tools to avoid being taken to the ground? If not you better get some.
Can you get back on your feet if taken to the ground? If not you better learn how.
What is the format? Are there rules?
Don't add anything for the sake of adding. You don't need 50 ways to deal with a straight lead punch.
Don't add anything that changes or doesn't fit the basic JKD structure.
Only add something if it's better than what you already do, or it adds something you're lacking.
ETC,

[Geoff]

thanks Tim...

[JKDawg]

Many other arts that are commonly "mixed" with JKD have one fatal flaw-they are passive in nature. JKD is a very "Pro-Active",if you can't intercept,attack! Most other arts rely too much on reacting to a punch or whatever. Most arts,including Wing Chun,have this belief that if you repeat the patterns long enough,you eventually can react freely. I believe that you should begin by teaching the student to react freely,too much time is wasted learning things like 10 different "cycles" to roll in Chi Sao instead of one good reaction to a real attack.

Having fewer choices reduces reaction time,that's why it's important not to "burden" our JKD with unrealated techniques or styles...

My 2 cents...

'Dawg

[Tim Tackett]

You're right! Thanks! I left out the most important thing which is NO PASSIVE MOVES. Passive moves gives your opponent time. JKD trys to take time away from your opponent.
Thanks JKDawg,
Tim

[Jared Davis]

btw tim, i found an instructor in my area (relatively, 30 mins away) the reason i asked that question is because JKD, kali, and silat are the 3 arts he teaches and he is certified under Cass Magda. I love the stuff we have done so far, in regards to the silat and kali. with the JKD we have done more of the kickboxing elements- footwork, some pad work, basic punches, in which today we were "cutting" into the tool which was pretty cool. but as cool as the silat and kali are, im obsessed with JKD and i wish more time was spent on JKD rather than the kali and silat. this is definetely better than not training at all, and I see some common denominators in kali and silat with JKD, but like i said before, im MOST interested in pure JKD.

[Tim Tackett]

Cass's guys a good. Cass doesn't just give out instructorships. You will get a lot out of it. Where do you train? I probably know your teacher. You will get some good JKD from any of Magda's guys. You're lucky that he's so close to you.
Tim

[Jared Davis]

whew, thats good to hear ill get good JKD.

his name is bob schott in canton, oh. he is a great instructor, and i see good results in his students as well.

just curious, obviously you must know cass magda, does he go really in depth with the jkd?

[Tim Tackett]

I think he does with his advanced guys. Ask your teacher if he was at Cass's when I did a workshop there.
Tim

[JKDawg]

I once asked my one of my instructors why no one in his organization just taught JKD. He said that since it's so simple and direct it's hard to keep students interested! That's why all the Kali and BJJ etc. Makes the students feel like they're getting their money's worth. Sad....

[Tim Tackett]

That's very true. It takes an unusual person to real "get" JKD. Most people want tricks. The want to learn new stuff every lesson or they feel cheated. I hope this is the reason that we have so few students. Also since we don't charge for lesons people think that it can't be worth much. It's also true that not everybody can learn it. Just like not everybody can be a good basketball player or high jump 7 feet.

[Jared Davis]

with that said tim, ill be sure to move out to california when i graduate and train under you guys VERY diligently. i would do ANYTHING for just an instructor in JKD because that is what i am most interested in, however, i enjoy what i am doing in the mean time with the kali and silat

it is unfortunate that now-a-days (and even back then from what i gather from bruce's letters to james and taky) that they always want to learn something new to keep their interest. if i could train, lets say, stop kicking, for 20 hours on end, i would do it in a heart beat. problem is, i dont have 20 hours nor a instructor that could sit there and watch me do it for 20 hours. instead i have to beg my girlfriend to put on focus pads and try her best for 15 minutes before her arms get really sore.. hahaha...

but really though, id like to think that im not in it for the tricks, because honestly i feel the more simple and direct a person is, the more capable they are of these so called "tricks"

for instance, just the other day my friends and I were sitting around and they were teasing me about martial arts, the big joke is they call me a ninja. either way, i told them i was going to show them 2 things just for the hell of it (in an attempt to shut them up) i proceeded to tell my friend to really try and land a punch on me, so i put on a headguard to prove my point, and told him to go full speed full forces at my head with any punch. but before i did that, i had him put on knee pads as well.
well as you can imagine as soon as he wound up his punch he was already off balance from my stop kick along with my hand flickering right in front of his face. this shut them up pretty quick.

then i told him to throw another punch, and this time i gained an attachment, and trapped his hands once again with my fist centimeters from his face.

despite this, they still teased me, but its all in good fun considering ive known these guys since i was 6.

the point is i agree with what your saying. instructors also tend to use trapping as a means to keep students interested, as my old instructor that lied to me did. it turns out the only JKD he knew was the trapping aspect of it.

and trust me, if the wednesday night group gave me FREE instruction, you better believe i would listen and that kind of knowledge would be PRICELESS.

[JKDawg]

Ahh,to be young again!

When I first started JKD,I was VERY disappointed that I couldn't find an instructor who taught just JKD. I've never really cared for Kali,and to be honest with you,I only stuck with it so I could get to the "good stuff". I don't teach for money,so I teach only what I like and don't feel any pressure to add anything I don't feel is important. I'm sure my old instructors wouldn't be too happy to know I've scrapped 50% of their curriculum!

Some of you are fortunate in that you are in a position where you have an instructor you can admire and respect. I've never had a JKD instructor who I felt was a real TEACHER. Every one I've trained with here,at some point,money becomes their goal. Both of my instructors here have made making a living off of JKD their primary goal. One failed and the other was quite successful. I remember having a Hwarangdo instructor when I was younger,I used to shovel his sidewalks when it snowed,and he always made us feel as though we were friends. My local JKD instructor once cancelled class,and evan though I had to drive 60 miles one way,didn't bother to call anyone! He didn't even leave a note on the door,I waited around for awhile,then drove home...

When I finally got a "cert",I decided that I would teach my way,that I already had a job,and I could teach just for the joy of it! Now,continuing my training involves me saving up for "training trips",but at least I get some real good stuff!

If you've got a good teacher,regardless of their "lineage" or "curriculum",feel blessed! Some of us have to work a little harder,and fly a little farther to get that!

'Dawg

[Geoff]

hi mate...you know and this just my opinion by the way.....ive always believed that people can bring it to you or you can go a find it your self, where would you like to be?at the table or in the kitchen? sometimes it takes longer... heart and character to dig deep and find some things on your own....yes a teacher can help and show you things...but what did bruce do on arriving in seattle....he had 5 years of wing chun behind him and everthing else was set from there through constant reseach..he didnt know what he was doing but just hacked away.day by day...bit by bit....what and who did he turn to....reading,experimenting,doing.applying,
and it wasnt just styles he was applying....it was himself.
you know setting the foundation to be a champion and finding your own cause of ignarance is harder than just waiting for someone to show you the "way" but in saying that people do need good teachers ...so on leaving you "mayb the true gift of any type of teacher is not nesercerly knowledge,,BUT!! the ability to help others believe in themselfs and with out that inner belief knowledge has no meaning"

[Geoff]

ps...so therefore im inspired by being here and being around great jkd people....geoff

[Arron Grammond]

A lot of the Silat and Kali blending with JKD come from the Inosanto Acadamy influence as far as I can find. AKA JKD Concepts

Interesting observation about them. Sometimes the only real variation between the 3 methods is the angle of attack.

JKD in and through.
Kali passing around and behind in a tight angle.
Silat angle out and angle in sharply.

In begining the trainig they appear differnt, later on they all start to look the same. This is true with all the martial arts when the edges are rounded off and the weapons are added and removed. The CORE becomes revealed as the true function is unvieled.

[Valpolicella]

jaymdubbs,
Man am I ever picking up what you're putting down! I agree 100% with you. I don't need to learn a whole bunch of tricks to feel like my time is being well spent. I feel like there is already quite a bit to learn as it is, and then practise to be able to use without adding anything just to keep me around. In fact I would consider it kind of insulting if I was being taught "tricks" just to keep my dollars rolling in. To think that there are people out there that are willing to teach for free what I want to learn and I'm nowhere even remotley close to being able to get involved...
I love my school and I'm lucky because it was the first one I went to . It's not another Mcdojo and the Sifu's really are pretty much Monks as in they have dedicated their lives to their art and I have seen them change things for the better over the years. But the school has expanded to like 20 locations, class sizes have gotten bigger and that has been for a reason. This group is a the top of their game. But with all those students around I don't get the type of attention I used to. I miss a smaller group when discussions like the ones that go on in this forum went on in class.
I've litrerally been reading here for less than a week but I check in a few times a day to learn what I can from the instructors that post here and read the excellent discusions. I've posted a few questions by now and they've all had (fast) great responses!
It makes me kind of home sick for what I feel I used to have in my school back in the day. BAck when I was truly excited about going to class. Not because I felt guilty for not going after investing so much time.
I hope I'm not getting to deep for you guys, but I know this is what I've been looking for from the martial arts for the past 5 years. It's nice to come across a group of people who seem to "get it"

[Equis]

I currently train in Krav Maga, I am interested in JKD, but as the previous poster stated. Alot of the art is always in a 3 package JKD, kali, and silat.
I found this place http://www.authenticbeladiri.com/jkd.htm , but it is a long drive for me to get there. I was wondeirng if anyone knew of this instructor, as he claims to be to close Lineage to the the JKD orginal instructors.
It is about $100.00 a month CASH only, which makes me think about the legitmacy about this place.

[cfr]

btw tim, i found an instructor in my area (relatively, 30 mins away) the reason i asked that question is because JKD, kali, and silat are the 3 arts he teaches and he is certified under Cass Magda. I love the stuff we have done so far, in regards to the silat and kali. with the JKD we have done more of the kickboxing elements- footwork, some pad work, basic punches, in which today we were "cutting" into the tool which was pretty cool. but as cool as the silat and kali are, im obsessed with JKD and i wish more time was spent on JKD rather than the kali and silat. this is definetely better than not training at all, and I see some common denominators in kali and silat with JKD, but like i said before, im MOST interested in pure JKD.


I trained for 14 months with an instructor who is certified under Cass Magda. I liked it alot. The one thing I couldnt stand though was needing to get to phase 3 (2 and a half years) to begin sparring. Dont know if your school is the same? I was in the same boat and just wanted to train though. I recently moved and found a pure JKD place and we started sparring on my second lesson. I have nothing but respect and admiration for my previous instuctor, but I will NEVER go back to a school where it takes that long to spar again. It just doesnt make sense. (to me)

[lssanjose]

that's interesting. two years to spar? three months, six months seem tolerable. But two years? I hope the pad training you did was sufficient to simulate sparring in some respects.

I realized that even a week away from sparring promotes rust. So you have to keep your consistency up.

[cfr]

that's interesting. two years to spar? three months, six months seem tolerable. But two years?


I guess "interesting" is one way of looking at it. :D

[Tim Tackett]

CFR,
Who isyour new JKD teacher?
Tim

[Equis]

Tim,

I saw on the website for an affliated instructor named Hal Faulkner
(707) 839-3619. Where about is this school the 707 area code is large.

[cfr]

CFR,
Who isyour new JKD teacher?
Tim


The one you pointed me to on Martial Talk... Rickard Weiss. :D

[Arron Grammond]

We start sparing pretty early on too (If they can reasonably defend themselves) Levels 1-2 are more about knowing basics over time put in with our group.

Granted Vince is insisting that they get their minimum protective gear together first now too. No gear, no sparing, no level 3 status.

CFR check you PM inbox.

[Tim Tackett]

cfr,
How's the training with Richard going?
Tim

[Tim Tackett]

Equis,
He's near Eureka.
Tim

[cfr]

cfr,
How's the training with Richard going?
Tim

Tim I can honestly say that last Monday was the worst training Ive ever experienced. Im hoping it was just a one time thing... my rear cross was absoltely pathetic. (Im sure when Richard logs on here he will vouch for me. :D ) I had a few other troubles but that was the biggest one.

Other than that, its going OK.

[Richard Weiss]

Tim Chris is doing great! he came over sat and we worked isolation sparring. the heat is getting a little bit to us, however we keep treading along. right know is the hardest time for us to train in my garage with just a fan, but we feel that if we stick it out, we will be just that much better come fall.
Richard.

[Tim Tackett]

Richard,
It's was hot last Wed in our garage also just a fan.

[Sen No Sen]

Tim,

I saw on the website for an affliated instructor named Hal Faulkner
(707) 839-3619. Where about is this school the 707 area code is large.


Hello all!

Where are you Equis? You have his number, his Academy is in Arcata on South G. St.

He likes the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu too! Speaking of adding something to JKD...


:D





Ray~

[Sen No Sen]

You're right! Thanks! I left out the most important thing which is NO PASSIVE MOVES. Passive moves gives your opponent time. JKD trys to take time away from your opponent.
Thanks JKDawg,
Tim



Good stuff gentlemen. Thanks kindly for the great new Forum Mr. Tackett

It's good to see it bringing people together and learning about the Jeet Kune Do.

[Martin ONeill]

To jaymdubbs
Please note that JKD ,Kali and Silat are all diferent arts.
Be careful when training in these together as it is easy to become confused especially if you are being taught a blend.I have found it much better to keep them seperate as the Jun Fan JKD is so different in its approach,interception,5 ways of attack and so on.
Some Instructors don't appear to know enough of the JKD and put in filler material which can cause confusion.
good luck in your training
Martin ONeill

[zippy]

"Some Instructors don't appear to know enough of the JKD and put in filler material which can cause confusion" some dont seem to know any JKD and just teach other arts instead and call it JKD.

[Tim Tackett]

Sad, but true!

[Jared Davis]

Please note that JKD ,Kali and Silat are all diferent arts.
Be careful when training in these together as it is easy to become confused especially if you are being taught a blend.I have found it much better to keep them seperate as the Jun Fan JKD is so different in its approach,interception,5 ways of attack and so on.
Some Instructors don't appear to know enough of the JKD and put in filler material which can cause confusion.
good luck in your training



i am/was fully aware of this issue while training with him. unfortunately, i am unable to continue training with him because the montly fee was a little to large for me (im a poor college student, what can i say) he was a great guy, and seemed to really know his stuff, however,as much as i enjoyed the Kali and Silat, it just wasnt holding up to my passion of JKD. you could say i have blinders on, but i dont want to confuse anything im learning, like you stated above.

i think he held an obvious bias to silat however, and theres nothing wrong with that if it works for him, but i am only really interested in the JKD. i saw quite a few common threads in the kali, silat, and jkd, and i think i understand why so many teachers teach that blend of martial arts. if i am to learn other arts besides jkd, i would to at least learn all the body mechanics, principles, and basics,etc, that are associated with jkd so i can better learn what my body is capable of,

and should i feel the need learn other arts, id like to be able to apply the knowledge i have learned to make me that much better of a martial artist

but currently, i really dont see that happening, because its obvious to me that i will be practicing "jkd" for the rest of my life. i dont feel that after all is said and done that i will need any "extras" (in terms of other arts) because i know a person can always improve on the basics, no matter what level of mastery they acheive. my reason behind this is the underlying idea of what "jkd" is about....simplicity. "the best technique is most often the simplest"

[Tim Tackett]

A lot of people equate learning a martial art with learing a lot of things. The more the better. Since JKD does not have a lot of techniques, it's hard to hold the average person's interest. It then becomes very difficult to teach JKD for a living, and I'm glad that I've never had to. While there are some instructors who just teach JKD, it's not easy. Some teach everything that Bruce ever did as it gives more to teach while some JKD teachers are like a boxing trainer with just a few fighters. This is why many teachers teach other arts also. The truth is that JKD is not for everybody. It may look easy, but it's really very difficult.

[zippy]

I teach JKD and also MMA and to be honest it is the MMA that people are more interested in. The reason for this is that it is more technique driven, where JKD is principle driven. Bruce never taught a lot of techniques, but he gave out much of his wisdom on fighting principles. From one principle a thousand techniques can be made, but understanding and training that principle is the difficult part.
MMA has loads of techniques that can be taught and applied in comps and so is easy to understand as you are spoon feeding the participant. JKD is different where the very concepts are deep and all the spoon feeding in the world will not help the participnat to "get it".
I good example of this is when you get them to punch with the front power side forward hand, they often come back saying it is not as powerful. When you ask them how long they have been doing it they say a couple of times.
What they can bot undestand is this simple equation.

1) Wrong technique done seldomly will produce little power.
2) Right technique done seldomly will produce more power than (1)
3) Wrong technique done often will produce more power than (1) and (2)
4) Right technique done often will produce more power than (1) and (2) and (3).

The problem is most people who come into martial arts tend to come in at level (3), which means they probably done bag work all their life and are better than those at (1) and (2) and will find it hard to find anyone who comes in category (4) putting them effectively top of the tree.
The problem is to be able to reach level (4) they have to swallow their pride and put in as much time and effort as they did the punches that they have now and eventually they will have a more powerful punch, but this takes dedication and work and unwaivering focuss. Since most people do martial arts for the "quick fix" how many are actually going to spend hours, days and years perfecting the lead punch, I think the amount of true pratitioners of JKD gives you an indication.

I hope this makes some sort of sense, it did in my head as I was writing it, but that means nothing... LOL

[Tim Tackett]

The way we teach JKD is the way Bruce worked with Bremer. It us very technique oriented. There is a way to punch and train it. It is really very detailed. The basics of how to get power in the punches and kicks is what we stress. By technique oriented, I don't mean that there's a lot of techniques. We stress the how, when and why of a technique. I think the way we train is more like the way the mma people do. I don't say the way we train is the best, but is is different from some of the JKD schools. I don't think that you can go to any JKD school and then say, "Ah! This is what JKD is and what it looks like". That's why is is good to espose yourself to as many guys as possible. The most anyone has is just a piece of the puzzle

[Jared Davis]

The truth is that JKD is not for everybody.


what kind of indicators do you guys look for in determining if it is or isnt for someone? ive heard that saying many times before, and sometimes i get scared because i have a tendency to be pessimistic, and think to myself "what if im one of those people that it isnt suited for"

id like to think that i am, as i have seen myself improve IMMENSLY since training in JKD. i realize that just training in it doesnt mean i get it, but when i train/spar/learn etc. i feel "something", whatever that "it" may be

[Tim Tackett]

Remember, because of self there is a foe. Just work on getting better each day. Not everybody has the fast twitch muscles or the will to put the effort into getting it. That is, being able to use it in combat against a skilled opponent. Just as not everybody can play pro basketball, but you may be able to play college, or high school basketball.

[Jared Davis]

after all is said and done, i might never reach that "pro" status, but I know i sure as hell try . i lift 4-5 times a week, run at least 4 miles everyday, and "train" jkd 3-4 times a week (1 day is with instructor, other days are by myself or training partner) and somehow i manage to fit that in a 7 day work week.

[Tim Tackett]

Sounds like you're on the right path.

[JKDawg]

Zippy I am going to add that to my notes right now!!!

[Arron Grammond]

A lot of people equate learning a martial art with learing a lot of things. The more the better. Since JKD does not have a lot of techniques, it's hard to hold the average person's interest. It then becomes very difficult to teach JKD for a living, and I'm glad that I've never had to. While there are some instructors who just teach JKD, it's not easy. Some teach everything that Bruce ever did as it gives more to teach while some JKD teachers are like a boxing trainer with just a few fighters. This is why many teachers teach other arts also. The truth is that JKD is not for everybody. It may look easy, but it's really very difficult.


I teach JKD and also MMA and to be honest it is the MMA that people are more interested in. The reason for this is that it is more technique driven, where JKD is principle driven. Bruce never taught a lot of techniques, but he gave out much of his wisdom on fighting principles. From one principle a thousand techniques can be made, but understanding and training that principle is the difficult part.
MMA has loads of techniques that can be taught and applied in comps and so is easy to understand as you are spoon feeding the participant. JKD is different where the very concepts are deep and all the spoon feeding in the world will not help the participnat to "get it".
I good example of this is when you get them to punch with the front power side forward hand, they often come back saying it is not as powerful. When you ask them how long they have been doing it they say a couple of times.
What they can bot undestand is this simple equation.

1) Wrong technique done seldomly will produce little power.
2) Right technique done seldomly will produce more power than (1)
3) Wrong technique done often will produce more power than (1) and (2)
4) Right technique done often will produce more power than (1) and (2) and (3).

The problem is most people who come into martial arts tend to come in at level (3), which means they probably done bag work all their life and are better than those at (1) and (2) and will find it hard to find anyone who comes in category (4) putting them effectively top of the tree.
The problem is to be able to reach level (4) they have to swallow their pride and put in as much time and effort as they did the punches that they have now and eventually they will have a more powerful punch, but this takes dedication and work and unwaivering focuss. Since most people do martial arts for the "quick fix" how many are actually going to spend hours, days and years perfecting the lead punch, I think the amount of true pratitioners of JKD gives you an indication.

I hope this makes some sort of sense, it did in my head as I was writing it, but that means nothing... LOL


This is part of why I view JKD as a Training Method not a Fighting method.
The Fighting ability is the side effect of the training.

A Training method doesn't need a lot of variables. It just needs to be done.

The core of training philosophy was constant, but the applications he trained for changed.

You need to study what the popular fighting systems are doing and learn to deal with them. Trying to maintain the status quo of 1973 in 2005 is a part of the problem. Bruce changed up from year to year or even month to month did he not?

Football, boxing, etc. all observe and study their current opponents and addapt.

Feedback on these observations?