forms, katas, and patterns

[frankiefuller]

Hello, I have been faced with this question over and over again. Some teachers say it's good to practice katas, others say they are not so practical. There are plenty of applications in forms called bunkai, where you break the form down and practice simulated series of techniques against imaginary attackers. We have to do this frequently in karate class besides doing the forms. I try to avoid emphasizing katas too much in my training so I can be prepared for reality-based training, but some of my teachers stress that they help your technique get better and prettier also, as well as more refined. A kata performed well is like a dance. In fact, many katas look like dances. In Asia, people would perform katas, or dances in front of the royalty as entertainment, and the katas themselves come out of praying positions, breathing exercises, and dance movements. Doing some jiu-jitsu techniques recently, I noticed that some of the moves performed with a partner look just like a waltz. Is this what martial arts should feel like, performing an elegant dance? Should we be "dancing" with the partner with pre-arranged drills and performing the movements in response to the opponent's reaction? If you watch Capoiera, it looks like a dance. They have an instrument playing in the background while the two "dance" and perform acrobatic movements. Wonder if JKD should be the same. Do katas perfect one's techniques? However, I saw some grandmasters doing a karate kata recently that had the crane kick in it from the karate kid with the arms moving around, and I thought that movement didn't look very practical. Is combat like a dance, or are katas just an outdated relic from the dances that were performed in front of the royal courts? I wonder why JKD has no katas because they seem to like doing vicious, raw techniques instead of practicing pre-arranged, complicated series of techniques on imaginary opponents. There is one karate kata that refers to breaking through the fortress in a castle, and I'm assuming it refers to one imagining oneself fighting armed attackers and breaking through enemy lines into the enemy's stronghold.

[Tim Tackett]

MOst JKD teachers do shadowing boxing a part of thier warmup. I guess it's like a kata but not, but you make it up as you visualize what your opponent might do. It's alive, not a set pattern. What is the kata for shooting a basket or catching a baseball? Boxers shadowbox also. I guess that's where Bruce got it. I used to know over 40 katas. The only one I kept was tai chi.
Tim

[Tim Tackett]

I forgot, but we do teach 6 kicking sets and 1 hand set in JKD. We first do them in a pattern then dissolve them to do them in a non-classical manner. We also teach the wing chun dummy set as well as the JKD dummy set. Atfer you leanr you then just free lance the dummy after chosing the tools from the sets that fit you.

[LMD II]

Hi Guys!

The Sil Lim Tao form from Wing Chun Gung Fu was an important part of the Jun Fan Gung Fu curriculum. When practiced daily, I have found that it does wonders for your overall structure in JKD! I teach it to my students and we go through it at least twice in every class. I first learned the form from Sifu Joseph I. Cowles, who trained with Bruce Lee in the Seattle Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute. He taught the form to me intact, just as Bruce Lee taught it to him. Later on, when viewing a video of Wong Shun Leung doing the form, I noticed it to be the EXACT form I had learned from Sifu Cowles. Then even later I acquired a video of Grandmaster Yip Man executing the form. Once again it was exactly the same! It is nice to know that Bruce Lee preserved the form as it was originally taught to him! I practice the form daily, usually anywhere from three to five times a day, and more on the days when I have classes to teach!

[Geoff]

hi instructors,,, i remember doing the 1st form for thirty minutes once and as i got up from that horse stance one sits on,,,,i fell on the floor and couldnt get up for about 5 minutes,,,ive heard some do it for longer,
i feel its like a meditation in motion,or if done really slow its like "stillness in motion" this form has taught me the roots of where forward pressure comes from,hence thats why i do it. geoff

[Tim Tackett]

I know that a lot of the Jun Fan guys do the Sil Lim Tao form and get a lot of benifit from it. If you feel that it helps your JKD then do it. I know that Bruce stressed it a lot in the early days and it was part of what made him into a great martial artist. Our group doesn't emphasize it as our structure is so different. I learned it many times from many different JKD and wing chun teachers. The structure is very similar to the 3 tai chu forms that I learned in Taiwan which come from the Fukien provence in China. I think the Sil form helps when you are at close range and attached.

[Arron Grammond]

The problem with Kata is when they DO become dance. The actual power and application is lost to the flare and style of the performance.

This is part of the trap Bruce lamented over in acctually naming JKD too.
This is what part of Style of no Style is about. No fixed responce no set preprescribed form of actions. Katas do program the predictable responces.

Vince was recently hired to put the function back into the Kung Fu that a local school was doing (By one of the owners). Without having specifically a Kung Fu bacground he was able to pull appart what they were doing and show them the light on moving back from preformance art to a fighting method.

They also have a Tai Chi instructor there. One day they were comparing the Katas that they had similar between them. They found that the start to end time durration was acctually the same between the 2 differnt methods.

Why, Tai Chi is so slow, how could this be one of the instructors asked. The answer, the Kung Fu Katas burst fast and pause in nice little hollywood/poster picture frames in the movements. All the pauses add up. The Tai Chi on the other hand flows consistantly through the forms without stopping, slowly but consistanly. The end result, same overall time from start to finish. "Tortoise and the hair."

The problem is the Tai Chi doesn't have the power or tourque, its about the flow. It does have the continuous movement The Kung fu lacks. The Kung Fu had bursts of "arm power" without the full potential of tourque and was missing the follow through and the continuous motion. The power and the application has been lost in BOTH.(I still think the Tai Chi "idea" is good training tool for muscle memory, then add the speed/power backin)

Through the application training some of the students had revelations that caused the schools other owner to become jealous of the students facination with Vince and on returning to application instead of just looking cool. In short Vince was dis-invited to work with them anymore after the owners had a heated debate.

Unfortunatly for them a number of thier students also followed Vince out the door.

Did Bruce not warn about incorporating flashy moves and unneeded movements to the fighting method?

Its one thing to have a training drill, its another when you start grading the look of the drill, over how well the student is acctually learning from it. When the DRILL becomes a performance and there is NO application. Its only ART and no martial. Its has become a Dance.

Under stress you WILL fight as you have practiced. If you train to DANCE you will DANCE, if you train to fight...

Reguarding the DANCE Martial arts mentioned above with Instruments. Having MA training in some places will get you put in jail or worse, by the powers that be. So the people hid there training in dance as the only way to train without getting arrested/killed. When the DANCE continued for the sake of dance and not as a covert training tool, They fell into the same trap as the other classical styles of art over function.

All the classical Martial arts have valid roots, or you wouldn't know about them because the guys who tried something that didn't work died! After the fighting was over though, they lost thier edge like a blade too long in the sheath.

Look to the current areas in the world where the fighting is real and the martial use is the primary application. The rust has been scoured from the martial arts by the friction of conflict. A few years from now you'll see someone selling francise schools of "Iraqi Do" or "Iraqi Fu." 20-50 Years after that it will be a dance school like many Americanised Martial arts become.

Historicaly this is true, any time the troops come home they bring back the area's martial arts and they become a new trend. In time the application will be lost and you're left with Kata's and Dance.

[frankiefuller]

The problem with Kata is when they DO become dance. The actual power and application is lost to the flare and style of the performance.

Did Bruce not warn about incorporating flashy moves and unneeded movements to the fighting method?

Its one thing to have a training drill, its another when you start grading the look of the drill, over how well the student is acctually learning from it. When the DRILL becomes a performance and there is NO application. Its only ART and no martial. Its has become a Dance.



Yes but what if the teacher says the kata contains application hidden beneath, that I have to learn the kata to know the secret technique, knowing without knowing, that by doing the form, I have already learned the application of the drill and the kata perfects the sequence of the different attack scenarios? For example, after this block, the opponent will get knocked sideways, then after that, the opponents head will be in the way, so I bring my hands back and knee him in the head. After that, the opponent will be knocked forward when I thrust my arms into his chest. These actions are assuming the opponent will react a certain way after I hit him.



Kata is only to transmit technique so there are loads, but putting all the kata into one i.e. footwork, evasion, and strike, hand, foot, and locks, then it becomes more freestyle. No set responce but whatever is needed from all the system kata. One single kata is only to preserve a technique that all, but added together with others kata from a system and used technique as needed regarding the need by the opponent faced.
[/quote]

The opponent is the one getting thrown into certain positions where his body is supposed to react a certain way after pre-set combination moves are applied to his body. The techniques practiced are how his body is predicted to react after getting hit a certain way. If one memorizes the different attack scenarios that are in the katas, one is supposed to be able to break down the various pre-set combinations memorized and use them against opponents, depending on the attacker's position. There may be more to this--there may be various hidden techniques (like "death touch" techniques or pressure points) that are not initially noticeable unless one has a high degree of training and is able to break down the katas. The right positioning of one's body, finesse, breathing, execution of the technique, and how the opponent's body is positioned, along with the proper stance and footwork, all lead one to execute the kata, but everything must be lined up for the technique to work, as in a dance when a partner is performing a dance move. A pretty kata, which often might look like a dance when performed well, will win high scores from the judges, and hopefully the kata, if used properly, is supposed to teach one what combinations might work in a real fight, and if the opponent is in the proper position for it to work. The problem I find is, there are just way too many katas for me to worry about what works. Will learning perfect execution of the katas make me a mighty warrior? Does true fighting come from breaking down the katas, do they teach the proper positioning to defeat an opponent? I find it interesting that after many years, Sifu Tim has thrown most of them out, yet my traditional instructors keep emphasizing the importance of them over and over, of which I'm not sure how many of the traditional instructors have been in real fights. Maybe the secret is in finding the useful combinations and throwing out the "pretty" moves that won't work. I try to avoid doing the katas excessively because too many of them may not be functional techniques against some of these JKD guys. It gets me back to reality when I get good advice from you guys. However, my karate teacher shows us moves and says, "In Karate Land, you would use this move to react to an opponent," meaning that in Karate Land, Karateka might use a move in bunkai (kata application) to parry/counter or throw an attack, as Karate Man attacks me in Karate Land. Do Tim, Bob, Joe, or Brent ever go to Karate Land to learn how to attack opponents, and is Karate Land the same as the real world?

[Arron Grammond]

If someone starts talking to you about secret techniques and hidden skills to be uncovered... You probably need to check your shoes because odds are you just stepped in a big pile of B.S.

You don't need a Kata to learn... Its probably hurting your learning more than helping. This is a JKD board, kata is taking you in competly the wrong direction if you are pursuing understanding of the JKD method in training.

If you think you'll learn the "Death Touch" or some other mistical power from Kata... I have a Bridge and a Tower you might be interesting in buying.

Pressure points are something you must DO to learn a kata cannot communicate the feel of bone and tissue to find nerve ends and the reaction of an opponent when you find them. Application over Forms.

If you want to win a trophey or a ribbon and that is your end goal, by all means practice your Kata and go compete in Kata. You will need to buy a house and LIVE in Karate land full time then.

If you want to have a honest martial art expression and learn to apply yourself in a real conflict. You need to re evaluate and what TRADITIONAL methods are doing. If your being trained with tricks and lies that you must unravel, how can you ever find an honest expression of yourself from them.

Strip down the non essential...

[Arron Grammond]

You saiy:
"The opponent is the one getting thrown into certain positions where his body is supposed to react a certain way after pre-set combination moves are applied to his body. The techniques practiced are how his body is predicted to react after getting hit a certain way. If one memorizes the different attack scenarios that are in the katas, one is supposed to be able to break down the various pre-set combinations memorized and use them against opponents, depending on the attacker's position."


In conflict the first thing out the window is any predictability in what the opponent will do. If you expect to do something and expect anyone to react a specific way... Your heading for a rude awakening.

Any established pattern you program into your fighting will be recognised and turned against you by a skilled opponent. THAT IS the worst aspect of the classical mess Bruce spoke of. You are the one who is going end up predictable.

If you are going to fight someone watch their other prior fights, you will find all their tells and patterns and they will be predicatable then, not as you hit them but as they are trying to attack you. This is where the focus of The Intercepting fist shows the problem with the classical styles and that Bruce exploited to the downfall of his opponents. That IS what Style of No Style is about.

BUT you are sold on Kata so by all means train them and enjoy them. Compete with them and win awards and certificates. As long as your only in Katate land an everyone is following the same play book... no problem.

I mean no offence here but from a JKD method perspective the Katas and forms are a journey backwards not forwards. They are what Bruce had to work extra hard to extract himself from and remove from his classical conditioning.

I've spared quite a bit with old school Kung Fu style opponents before and they though it would be a boon for them to be able to shift between their animal forms (Katas basically) but all they were doing was trading a predefined set of limits for another. Each form shift predifined how and where they could be offensive and defensive.

Same is True of the Karate people I've spared. Same with the Judo, Jujitsu, etc, Even some of the JKD people who work set routeens of fixed pattern. You can see them and predict them as they attack...

Their responce to your attack is the NON predictable aspect in a fight, you cannot EXPECT someone to respond correctly to what YOU do.

A guy I knew back in High school was VERY skilled at Karate, he ended up in a fight and got his butt handed to him. His opponent wasn't trained or skilled in any formal sence. The reason he lost, to his own admittance, was that the guy didn't "respond the way he was SUPPOSED too" when hit.

My old Kajukembo instructor always said to train for "plan Z." You can have plans A-Y but you will always find that none of them work right and you'll have to resort to plan Z and work in the unexpected. Everything I've learned in JKD from Vince is the same way. Training for the unexpected.

When Karate started out you would learn that when a guy stabbed at you with a spear you could snap the shaft with this type of block, then if you were fighting a swordsman always keep one arm back and out of harms way in case the slashed you. When these became Kata and no one used spears and swords like that anymore... what are you training for them for? The method went stagnated and the function was lost, it didn't addapt to the new uses but became tradition. Sure a movement or so might be usefull if you pulled it out but you train in a pattern, then under stress that pattern comes out and is HOW you respond. This is predictable.

Hey its your life and your time in training, don't take my word for anything, find your own path and travel it. After all, its all about the journey not the destination. It just sounds like someone is selling you a bill of goods and I hate when that happens to people!!!

Good luck man,

[JKDawg]

I know the Sil Lim Tao,occasionally I'll work that one out. I work mostly on shadowboxing,but sometimes do Carrenza,Numerada,and various Sumbrada. I had dumped all that,but suddenly felt like doing it again!

I find that everybody responds differently to different things,and as such,have no set curriculum. Someone may benefit from Sil Lim Tao,some people just fall into the rut of "pattern thinking".

[frankiefuller]

You saiy:
"The opponent is the one getting thrown into certain positions where his body is supposed to react a certain way after pre-set combination moves are applied to his body. The techniques practiced are how his body is predicted to react after getting hit a certain way. If one memorizes the different attack scenarios that are in the katas, one is supposed to be able to break down the various pre-set combinations memorized and use them against opponents, depending on the attacker's position."


In conflict the first thing out the window is any predictability in what the opponent will do. If you expect to do something and expect anyone to react a specific way... Your heading for a rude awakening.

Any established pattern you program into your fighting will be recognised and turned against you by a skilled opponent. THAT IS the worst aspect of the classical mess Bruce spoke of. You are the one who is going end up predictable.

If you are going to fight someone watch their other prior fights, you will find all their tells and patterns and they will be predicatable then, not as you hit them but as they are trying to attack you. This is where the focus of The Intercepting fist shows the problem with the classical styles and that Bruce exploited to the downfall of his opponents. That IS what Style of No Style is about.

BUT you are sold on Kata so by all means train them and enjoy them. Compete with them and win awards and certificates. As long as your only in Katate land an everyone is following the same play book... no problem.

I mean no offence here but from a JKD method perspective the Katas and forms are a journey backwards not forwards. They are what Bruce had to work extra hard to extract himself from and remove from his classical conditioning.

I've spared quite a bit with old school Kung Fu style opponents before and they though it would be a boon for them to be able to shift between their animal forms (Katas basically) but all they were doing was trading a predefined set of limits for another. Each form shift predifined how and where they could be offensive and defensive.

Same is True of the Karate people I've spared. Same with the Judo, Jujitsu, etc, Even some of the JKD people who work set routeens of fixed pattern. You can see them and predict them as they attack...

Their responce to your attack is the NON predictable aspect in a fight, you cannot EXPECT someone to respond correctly to what YOU do.

A guy I knew back in High school was VERY skilled at Karate, he ended up in a fight and got his butt handed to him. His opponent wasn't trained or skilled in any formal sence. The reason he lost, to his own admittance, was that the guy didn't "respond the way he was SUPPOSED too" when hit.

My old Kajukembo instructor always said to train for "plan Z." You can have plans A-Y but you will always find that none of them work right and you'll have to resort to plan Z and work in the unexpected. Everything I've learned in JKD from Vince is the same way. Training for the unexpected.

When Karate started out you would learn that when a guy stabbed at you with a spear you could snap the shaft with this type of block, then if you were fighting a swordsman always keep one arm back and out of harms way in case the slashed you. When these became Kata and no one used spears and swords like that anymore... what are you training for them for? The method went stagnated and the function was lost, it didn't addapt to the new uses but became tradition. Sure a movement or so might be usefull if you pulled it out but you train in a pattern, then under stress that pattern comes out and is HOW you respond. This is predictable.

Hey its your life and your time in training, don't take my word for anything, find your own path and travel it. After all, its all about the journey not the destination. It just sounds like someone is selling you a bill of goods and I hate when that happens to people!!!

Good luck man,

But what about the history, the tradition, the elegance of the pattern itself? Patterns teach a historical lesson of the roots of the katas and supposedly give the foundation for the martial way. I don't do much kata obsessively like some people, but I notice that some teachers talk about the importance of what kata teaches you and how the kata supposedly lead to a valuable knowledge base, the tradition in the martial arts and the discipline. They (the karate teachers) would claim all of this. They would say that one who has no kata is unrefined, is not a disciplined martial artist one who lacks an understanding of the fighting arts.

I noticed that some drills don't work when people don't respond as they are "supposed" to. I hate it when that happens, especially when you go out of Karate Land to the alternate reality of "Real World" sometimes. However, when I spar I notice that I never really used to think about the application of the kata. I just fight free form, but apparently the kata is supposed to apply to real fighting at some point, or perhaps pieces of the katas. I don't need trophies or metals, but to advance in some styles they make me do the group kata thing (everybody in the class doing it in lines and rows) to show off the teacher the pretty moves. The sparring brings out a lot of stuff that throws the skill out the window at times and relies on instinct as to how your body reacts. I haven't ever thought about using kata in sparring until I came upon a few traditionalist teachers in the last few years that told me that katas are useful and did the "uke" thing with the non-resisting opponent. However, why when you apply resistance is it harder to do the moves that are supposed to work?

I don't want to go backward because I got pretty good at certain aspects of sparring, so am I obligated to use the kata applications to get more skilled? They make me feel like I have to do the stuff to get good. My teacher says you need a foundation in a Japanese system to understand a Chinese system, so he won't show us the more flowing, devastating stuff he shows his black belts until we get a black belt in karate or jiu-jitsu first, so I have to sweat out being in Karate Land for awhile until then. At least you guys give me a head-start by the time I get there so I can learn other things before then. In trying to adopt JKD techniques, there is quite a contrast, in that moves that are supposed to work in Karate Land don't seem to work against some of the non-karateka (like you JKD guys). Perhaps I would be pretty good if still in Karate Land and if the Real World didn't apply. Do you think Bruce would be able to fight a strong karateka if he went to Karate Land? How would he defeat Mas Oyama, who killed bulls with his bare hands, or beat those hardcore guys who practice to release one strike, one kill blows? My Karate Land teacher feels sparring isn't so important because the sparring doesn't teach as much value as perfecting the technique, or sensitivity drills and bunkai, for instance, or the sparring, if emphasized too much, makes people hold back too much in a real fight. The teacher would say the UFC fighters have too many rules, and more stuff would be done in a real fight that the ring would show.

They force me to do the katas to get the belt. I'll get the grandmaster belt someday, then prove to them that some of the stuff is just too old- fashioned, but they make me do this stuff to advance. My karate teacher once told me he thinks the JKD guys anyway are just taking a bunch of techniques from Bruce Lee and throwing them together to make a system. , or that Bruce just took a bunch of stuff and called it a style. He says it's not a martial art, just a bunch of techniques. A "real" martial art, he would probably say, has many years of tradition, lineage, katas, proper systems of techniques, and organized levels of advancement and instills discipline. It has combat-proven techniques that take numerous factors into consideration, like breathing, timing, control, speed, finesse, torque, footwork, stances, and has a clearly defined evolution of the style itself instead of a mish-mash of techniques from various styles. There is all kinds of dojo etiquette also that seems complicated (like bowing to the opponent or kneeling one's head on the floor at the feet of the master), and a rich history, along with the katas (like some that are 900 years old), and also instills discipline and respect in the practioners. I have heard traditionalists say that JKD people are not as organized with set standards, do not have the discipline to learn a "proper" style, and do not understand the evolution of (or secret behind) the techniques themselves to appreciate their full value. Also, one would "respect" the training partner and not perform moves or drills not in that particular art being practiced. In karate class they say, "We didn't teach you that here. Do what we taught you," or if I don't do the sequence of techniques on drill #5, for instance, they say, "No, that's wrong, you have to do the punch then the kick, not the kick then the punch."

[brentlance]

We've talked about alot of these topics before. And it's not about disrespecting a style, but if there's a guy who's good at JKD and a guy who's good at kata in a "kata contest" the guy who knows the kata would win most likely. If they were in a street fight, I'd put my money on a JKD guy even though what really matters is the individual. Because some "JKD people" can't fight either. But just because of my experiences about training methods. What types of experiences have you had say coming up here to train? I would say that you are getting out of the box.

Now, good JKD guys know about other styles even if it's just about delivery systems. But other stylists don't usually know squat about JKD, Hell, alot of JKD practitioners don't know alot about JKD. Anyone who does know respects other arts. But people who can't get out of the box criticize those that do. And even some JKD practitioners stay in a box.
And they criticize just like the others. Some call it politics.

The important thing to remember is can YOU express yourself doing a 900 year old kata? Or do you have to get permission from your instructor first.

You know from coming up here to train a little bit, that JKD has a definite structure, not 10 different structures from different styles. There is a structure, but after you learn that structure you are not bound by it. If something better is available to you, you would always be encouraged to take it. But you have to be honest with yourself, are you really expressing Frank Fuller or your instructor. Is what you're learning giving you what you want.

If you have specific questions, put them in your notes, bring them up and we will go over them together. You have shown commitment to drive 1 1/2 hours each way to come train with me. So, I know you take it seriously.

[Jared Davis]

In karate class they say, "We didn't teach you that here. Do what we taught you," or if I don't do the sequence of techniques on drill #5, for instance, they say, "No, that's wrong, you have to do the punch then the kick, not the kick then the punch."


With much respect frankie, and i hope you realize, this mentality will surely not help you in terms of real actual combat. there are just too many factors in why it wont, as already described by the very knowlegeable JKD people on this board. cliched as it is, "all truth lies outside fixed patterns," because, it "honestly" is.

by the time you get to all the "and then, and then, and then" you are already knocked out.

but dont get me wrong, i very much respect all traditional martial arts, but I've discovered no truth for myself in praciticing kata and forms practiced 900 years ago.

Good luck in your journey

[Arron Grammond]

Frankie you seem to be answering your own questions and comments.

When you get to be a grand master... Part of the deal with JKD is Bruce Lee already took this route for us. He was trained in very traditional, formal, LONG history martial arts. Then he recognised the limitations and tried to fix the problems. Breaking out of the Forms and Katas was a major part of it.

JKD is NOT a style, it is a training method. It was Bruces personal training method while he was teaching the June Fan Wing Chung school even. Its not a mish mash of peices of other styles as much as stripping the useless or out of date parts off and simplifying it. You don't have to sift through to pull out the working parts to find the secerets...

Once you get past the initial training BS most martial arts start to look very similar, the attitude and flare on the moves makes them look a little differnt but punching and kicking... is still punching and kicking. Once you figure out the mechanics that give you the most efficient power it is what it is. JKD tries to convey this final product bypassing all the ART and Style.

Yes many traditional arts say JKD is ugly and not refined looking. Its not supposed to be pretty, its function OVER artistic flare. I would rather look ugly and be alive than look pretty as I die...

As you say they tell you that you are not doing what they are telling you to do when you divert from the fixed actions. JKD is not that way, addapting and flowing and growing outside of the fixed predefined limitation IS the true CORE of JKD method.

Yes respect the old traditional arts, as ART. As historical fighting methods, they have valid parts, they had a reason for what they did, they lived to pass it on, it had to have worked! But as it became art it lost the reason, it lost the function, it became staginate and didn't update, reevaluate, addapt, grow, change, evolve... What does this mean in the real world for ANYTHING... Death. Put it in a museum and honor the past. Most Matrial ARTS are really historical preservation societies.

Do not forget them, learn and know them, but realise that they are what they are. Look deeper and find the WHY and the HOW. At one point they were current and valid.

Flying jump kicks get people off horses, it also gets people off motorcycles, some people have tried to show it as a way to attack a person in a moving car by going through the windsheild. How real is that, how and where do you expect to need that?

Tradition COULD be used this way. But how realistic and efficent is it. Sure I just jump kicked through the wind sheild of a moving car, now I'm stuck with my leg through the windsheild as it crashes into a wall or another car...

Track down an honest JKD instructor and try them out. Odds are you'll have an revelation and/or get kicked out of your Karate class for not being as predictable as your supposed to be.

Look at a number of Wing Chung Schools, its all Bruce lee did wing Chug, WC rules... ra! ra! ra! Be Like Bruce Lee. Then When you discover JKD they hand you a printed propaganda packet about how bad Bruce Lee sucks and why JKD is bad.

Look for simplicity, honesty, and simplification. If they have bait you with learning hidden secrets or uber techinques you only get to learn at the highest levels... I would suspect them of running a scam on you.

I know a LOT of people that USED to do Karate. I don't know anyone that USED to do JKD. Once you find the truth, its light banishes the shadows of lies and deceit.

[frankiefuller]

Frankie you seem to be answering your own questions and comments.

When you get to be a grand master... Part of the deal with JKD is Bruce Lee already took this route for us. He was trained in very traditional, formal, LONG history martial arts. Then he recognised the limitations and tried to fix the problems. Breaking out of the Forms and Katas was a major part of it.

You don't have to sift through to pull out the working parts to find the secerets...

Once you get past the initial training BS most martial arts start to look very similar, the attitude and flare on the moves makes them look a little differnt but punching and kicking... is still punching and kicking. Once you figure out the mechanics that give you the most efficient power it is what it is. JKD tries to convey this final product bypassing all the ART and Style.

As you say they tell you that you are not doing what they are telling you to do when you divert from the fixed actions. JKD is not that way, addapting and flowing and growing outside of the fixed predefined limitation IS the true CORE of JKD method.

Yes respect the old traditional arts, as ART. As historical fighting methods, they have valid parts, they had a reason for what they did, they lived to pass it on, it had to have worked! But as it became art it lost the reason, it lost the function, it became staginate and didn't update, reevaluate, addapt, grow, change, evolve... What does this mean in the real world for ANYTHING... Death. Put it in a museum and honor the past. Most Matrial ARTS are really historical preservation societies.

Do not forget them, learn and know them, but realise that they are what they are. Look deeper and find the WHY and the HOW. At one point they were current and valid.

Flying jump kicks get people off horses, it also gets people off motorcycles, some people have tried to show it as a way to attack a person in a moving car by going through the windsheild. How real is that, how and where do you expect to need that?

Tradition COULD be used this way. But how realistic and efficent is it. Sure I just jump kicked through the wind sheild of a moving car, now I'm stuck with my leg through the windsheild as it crashes into a wall or another car...

Track down an honest JKD instructor and try them out. Odds are you'll have an revelation and/or get kicked out of your Karate class for not being as predictable as your supposed to be.

Look at a number of Wing Chung Schools, its all Bruce lee did wing Chug, WC rules... ra! ra! ra! Be Like Bruce Lee. Then When you discover JKD they hand you a printed propaganda packet about how bad Bruce Lee sucks and why JKD is bad.

Look for simplicity, honesty, and simplification. If they have bait you with learning hidden secrets or uber techinques you only get to learn at the highest levels... I would suspect them of running a scam on you.

"I know a LOT of people that USED to do Karate. I don't know anyone that USED to do JKD. Once you find the truth, its light banishes the shadows of lies and deceit."



They tell me the secrets are in the katas, but somehow, I don't want to wait around 20 years to learn the application if there are any hidden moves.

How does JKD do so well in getting right to the point? How come they don't put you through a bunch of unorthodox techniques before you get right to what's going to work in a street fight?

Yes, I feel too many of them are historical preservation societies. There are too many black belts walking around pretending to be Japanese, bowing, using Japanese terminology in class, living according to the Samurai code, meditating, or perhaps learning the different Chinese meridians (or Japanese, about the same), learning massage and healing techniques, learning the proper draw of a sword, falling properly, and learning the art exactly as the Great Master taught, without deviance, without altering it in any way. They say I can't alter any technique or modify a drill until I am a Master (about 5th degree) in that particular art.

However, I heard the katas were also designed for fighting people in battle.

I've been working with Brent, who's helped a great deal. This comment here is interesting because I tried to show them some stuff and they didn't seem impressed with it much. Maybe I'll use some of it on them if they decide to do some sparring sometime to prove a point. You're right, it's not as predictable, and they tell me when I practice a punch on a partner, I should step forward into it (using Karate-Man punch) sometimes so the person can see the punch and respond appropriately. I've had quite a revelation seeing the positive benefits of JKD, but the karate guys just don't like seeing me do other stuff sometimes. They didn't kick me out, but they yell at me and say, "Is this Jeet Kune Do class? This is Karate class, and you do Karate here!" Or they say, "Did we teach you that here?" They say I can't 'make up' techniques during a test either, and when I do a submission technique in jiu-jitsu, they say only use techniques I learned here. So I have to shut up to advance in ranking and use pre-arranged drills. They also say, "All the application for katas are in the bunkai drills, not so much sparring. Sparring is a new thing that was designed in the last few decades, but the old masters fought hardcore, they didn't spar."

I've heard the "Jeet Kune Do is bad" argument before, and they explain by JKD is not a style, but is his modified Wing Chun that is gotten from what he took of it. Also, I keep hearing stuff from Wong Jak Man's students or people on the web, or Chinese people who say that Bruce Lee wasn't really that good and didn't have a mastery or the arts to truly understand them, and that's why Wong Jak Man had a much better understanding of the arts and didn't use completely all he knew of the dozens of styles practice to use on Bruce Lee.

However, there are scary things that some grandmasters can do that are quite dangerous. I've seen people moan in pain from guys doing strange things with Ki on pressure points or similar things.

You're right, it's impossible for me to find people who USED to do JKD, it's always the other way around. They are only ex-JKD if they are a paraplegic or something. Also, I see few JKD people who try doing flips or other ridiculous, unorthodox, or hazardous moves that are dangerous.

Brent is right in questioning if I'm reflecting my instructor or me by doing the ancient katas. Katas are fun for art's sake, but I would rather avoid them for practical application unless I know for sure. I don't want to get knocked out trying to use them in combat. If I could advance in karate without them it would be nice, but they make me do them. At least I get out of the dojo box to get other stuff. I don't care if they approve of me doing JKD or not, I still try doing it to get other stuff. I tell them too and they don't seem to say much, which is good.

[john]

Heres a suggestion. Learn jkd, when your real good walk back into the karate hall, spar or fight anyone who want to, soundly beat them, put on what ever belt you want and tell them to form a line. Never fails 8)

[Arron Grammond]

JKD is about training for application NOT for show. So it goes directly to the function and not how many forms you can memorize or how many differnt languaghes you can count to 10 in.

Its about living through a conflict and tring to express what your martial art is not to be come the clone of someone else. Not even a clone of Bruce.

Kata developed in an attempt to preserve and pass along a method of fighting when peace time came and active fighting was not possible. They were never updated.

Why are you seeking to be a Karate Grand master?
The only real test is if you live or die. If you are goin through the motions just to get a rank and then have the right to do your own thing... Leave now and DO your own thing. There approval means nothing.

They are 100% correct, JKD is NOT a style. It is a Method of training. Not only did it have Wing Chung influence Bruce studied ALL the fighting around him including American boxing and it all influenced him with what was functional and what was not.

Bruce's true gift was being able to see through the B.S. and pull the core function out of anything he faced or observed in martial arts. He could adapt himself and how he was fighting to counter this. Even resorting to "dirty" tricks.

What you are mentioning is the reason I tried Karate and walked away from it as a child.

Ask why you want thier approval. They will not accept changes you make to thier tradditions. With so many people faking or blowing up thier knowedge and skill what differnce does a peice of paper make.

As far as Bruce not being a good fighter... He had a number of fight where it was life or death... He survied... That's all the proof I need. People from other arts that at first rejected him later worshiped him... So how does that stand up to people who dismiss him now?

The ex JKD you mention is similar to the only ex snow boarder I knew. He was a pro on skis and couldn't handle the humility of looking clumsy as he learned to snowbard. Same must be true of these people you mention.

Seak out the simple truth. Take to heart that a closed mind is a liability not a strenth. If they reject change then they will find themselves trying to hold back the tides of time. Things do CHANGE no matter how hard the ignore it.

I think it was Bruce who also said that only 1 out of 1000 people actually grasp the intent of JKD. Don't get disouraged seek true and you will find it.

[brentlance]

Frank,

I feel what you are saying, and if there's one thing I'd want you to learn by working with me is as Bruce Lee said, "Express oneself...honestly". I am not a clone of Tim Tackett and never will be. He wouldn't want me to be. I know the things I've been taught and practiced, but I don't think I am the same person as any of my instructors. They are all great in my opinion. But a real teacher would want you to be better than they are.
Not hold you back so they could collect more of your money, or keep them from looking bad.


In regards to sparring, when we get invited to come to a school on their sparring night and my 2 year students can out manuver the instructor and hit without being hit, they are always shocked. I am not. Then, I am sure that when we leave they say "JKD is not a real martial art, so we're still better." and we further analyze what they attempted to do and how we dealt with it so we can get better. I know the only reason they invite us in is to see if they can beat JKD and what they don't understand that I am not JKD, I am Brent who just happens to use what I've learned to express myself in that environment.

JKD is an expression of oneself through physicality, not an expression of someone else.

Like Arron said, not a style, but a method of expression. Sure it has structure, but you're not bound by it. Just like I tell my young students when they get frustrated about something, "If we all draw a picture of a tree right now there's no way your tree will look like my tree, unless you refuse to express yourself and copy my picture. And if you don't know how to draw a tree or even what a tree is, I will let you see my version. But after you see it, I expect you to go back and draw your own picture. Then as your teacher, I will look at your tree and if I know any helpful hints that will improve your ability to draw better trees, I will show you."

Anybody else in my opinion that tells you to copy them or anybody else either has a big ego problem, or just can't do his own work and has to copy off someone else.

Keep learning my friend.

[Arron Grammond]

Very nice, I like your example Brent. Would you mind if I borrow it?

[brentlance]

Very nice, I like your example Brent. Would you mind if I borrow it?



I don't mind.

[frankiefuller]

Here's what a karate grandmaster told me recently about the usefullness of kata.

"Kata are for styles, to maintain quality control. If you want to learn to
fight like the founder of a style then learn his kata. Kata teach you "about"
fighting but do not teach you how to fight. The bunkai is a translation. Some have discovered "hidden" meaning. Like a piano, some will know what to do with the keys, and some will not. Some will understand kata, its limitations and value some will not."

I guess this puts it into better perspective for me. I think the kata will help me see things in a more 3-dimensional perspective when facing attacker scenarios. Getting to grandmaster gets me respect in the field, just like getting a Ph.D. will get me respect in academia. Without the minimum qualifications, it's harder to be taken seriously by the other grandmasters. Then when you show that you can get to a certain level and do things, people will listen.

In regards to drills, is it better to practice on a static partner or a moving partner? Today in jiu-jitsu (traditional Japanese JJ) we had to practice doing a leg sweep on people as one of the drills. Everybody was lined up in 2 rows, one on each side, facing 45 degrees towards the middle, one side had left leg in front, the other right leg. 2 rows, one attacker goes down the line and shifts from 1 side to another to pull off the same sweep, like a "gaunlet." No one moved except the attacker, and the uke fell with zero resistance.

[Arron Grammond]

Again not to be rude but Frankie, why are you talking to a JKD board about Katas? Go to a Karate board and talk Kata.

I'm sure we would all love to talk JKD methods with you but you keep returning to Kata.

Exactly who are you trying to convince the valid use of katas to here?
Us or you?

The oppinion of your grand master is also rather strange to keep pointing out.

If you asked a Hoover sales rep about vacumes you can bet he is going to try and sell you a vacume. You ask a Karate instructor about karate and he'll sell you katas.

We are discussing about CARPETS (JKD and applied fighting) and you keep telling us about what the Hoover rep told you about vacumes... does that make sence? The oppinion of the hoover rep doesn't do anything to the conversations about carpets. Related , yes, valid, no.

I'm glad you love your $2000 vacume, I'm happy with my $20 shop vac. So quit talking to me about hovers... :wink: Now about that carpet...

[brentlance]

Here's what a karate grandmaster told me recently about the usefullness of kata.

"Kata are for styles, to maintain quality control. If you want to learn to
fight like the founder of a style then learn his kata. Kata teach you "about"
fighting but do not teach you how to fight. The bunkai is a translation. Some have discovered "hidden" meaning. Like a piano, some will know what to do with the keys, and some will not. Some will understand kata, its limitations and value some will not."

I guess this puts it into better perspective for me. I think the kata will help me see things in a more 3-dimensional perspective when facing attacker scenarios. Getting to grandmaster gets me respect in the field, just like getting a Ph.D. will get me respect in academia. Without the minimum qualifications, it's harder to be taken seriously by the other grandmasters. Then when you show that you can get to a certain level and do things, people will listen.

In regards to drills, is it better to practice on a static partner or a moving partner? Today in jiu-jitsu (traditional Japanese JJ) we had to practice doing a leg sweep on people as one of the drills. Everybody was lined up in 2 rows, one on each side, facing 45 degrees towards the middle, one side had left leg in front, the other right leg. 2 rows, one attacker goes down the line and shifts from 1 side to another to pull off the same sweep, like a "gaunlet." No one moved except the attacker, and the uke fell with zero resistance.



Sounds like you're very close to answering your own questions. I have been in the same position as you before, not agreeing with something I was told was how I HAD to do it. That is why I love JKD and my instructors and my peers. If I find a better way that works for me, I am encouraged to use it. I just haven't seen much stuff that's better. And they would probably want to at least see it, to see if it works for them.

I will tell you Frank, I don't think that there's any secret that you couldn't figure out on your own if you free up your thinking. I also don't think you should wait around for someone to show you a secret either. If there are any secrets, this is the 21st century, not the 10th. It isn't too hard to get them.

Brent

[lssanjose]

I think in commentaries, it was mentioned that, "there are no secrets." Then goes saying that it's your body.

[frankiefuller]

I will tell you Frank, I don't think that there's any secret that you couldn't figure out on your own if you free up your thinking. I also don't think you should wait around for someone to show you a secret either. If there are any secrets, this is the 21st century, not the 10th. It isn't too hard to get them.

Brent[/quote]

I would hope so. I would hope that none of the Wed. Night crowd would tell me that "Sorry, you can't observe these secrets yet. They're only reserved for the Upper Crust, and you don't have an understanding enough yet to know what I'm talking about, so come back in 10 years." I am frustrated when I hear karate masters say I can't look at their deeper curriculum to see what they do. They want me somehow to prove I am "worthy" in order for them to show me some of their "secrets," as if I intend on stealing their stuff. What are they afraid of? I thought information should be freely available to anyone, regardless of experience. You are right. I bet in the 10th century, the old master would wait until the student is "worthy" and give him the secrete scrolls. However, I don't see the use of that now when many martial arts don't seem afraid to exchange knowledge, since after all, you can't use my knowledge against me to overthrow my kingdom (I think most people don't own castles anymore). This is not the day of warring tribes where secrets must be preserved for life or death.

My karate teacher was a close student of a guy who knew some of the
original founders of a certain Hawaiian style (which I trained in for 6 months), possessing the original notes of the style itself, and I asked my instructor if I could read them. He said, "Sorry, I can't show them to you until you're a Master here or get to a certain high enough level to appreciate it." It's not fair because he's able to show the other high ranking guys the stuff but not the low-ranking karate people, even if they are just curious. I wish I could get what the black belts are getting on the weekends. They get the really good kung fu/Silat stuff I want to pick up,
and I have to get a black belt from him first before earning the right to take it.

Or, I could just go talk to some of you guys to get it (actually Brent probably does similar stuff because he's had similar teachers with some of those elements). I hate waiting, but by that time, I'll already be able to get enough stuff from those guys to keep up. I hate being in this grade-school mode where the teacher tells me when I can learn something new. People teaching students should just let it all out on the table (especially with mature adult human beings) and let them observe what they can for themselves.

I saw a good modification of a technique one time in class and wanted to try it, but when that happens, they sometimes tell me over there in jiu-jitsu class also, "Sorry, can't change the technique. When you become a Renshi, then you can modify the stuff your own way, but just do what they say until then" (Renshi is usually at least 5th dan and possibly 6th dan).

[Tim Tackett]

The only secret in JKD is that there are no secrets or "advanced" techniques.

[brentlance]

Here's what a karate grandmaster told me recently about the usefullness of kata.

"Kata are for styles, to maintain quality control. If you want to learn to
fight like the founder of a style then learn his kata. Kata teach you "about"
fighting but do not teach you how to fight. The bunkai is a translation. Some have discovered "hidden" meaning. Like a piano, some will know what to do with the keys, and some will not. Some will understand kata, its limitations and value some will not."

I guess this puts it into better perspective for me. I think the kata will help me see things in a more 3-dimensional perspective when facing attacker scenarios. Getting to grandmaster gets me respect in the field, just like getting a Ph.D. will get me respect in academia. Without the minimum qualifications, it's harder to be taken seriously by the other grandmasters. Then when you show that you can get to a certain level and do things, people will listen.

In regards to drills, is it better to practice on a static partner or a moving partner? Today in jiu-jitsu (traditional Japanese JJ) we had to practice doing a leg sweep on people as one of the drills. Everybody was lined up in 2 rows, one on each side, facing 45 degrees towards the middle, one side had left leg in front, the other right leg. 2 rows, one attacker goes down the line and shifts from 1 side to another to pull off the same sweep, like a "gaunlet." No one moved except the attacker, and the uke fell with zero resistance.




For Quality Control, I would use fighting (or at least sparring) in addition to technique and mechanics.

Someone could know a thousand katas and still need to learn how to fight. Someone could beat the daylights out of a bag or mitts and still need to learn how to fight. Someone could do a million types of drills and still need to learn how to fight.

These drills don't teach you how to fight. They may build some attributes, but if you don't practice fighting and getting hit back you may find yourself flat on your back because you got hit. That is a missing link that probably 90% of martial artists don't have. They can talk about how prepared they are because of kata, drills, etc., but in the end it comes down to what you can dish out and what you can take as well. The only exception in my opinion is if you are physically unable to practice with this intensity, ie. an injury, age, etc. It's no stretch to say that I have been hit thousands of times along various parts of my body and some of them really hurt :) Sometimes, I didn't know what day it was when I got up until my head cleared. But I think it has maken me a better Fighter.

So, you could try doing a kata against one or more opponents if you want, but practice against real moving opponents that are going to hit you. See if it works or not. I believe that you will find that technique is not enough.

[Geoff]

hi brent how often do you sparr? as i only do it 2 or 3 times a week ....i go to different instructors gyms ...boxing and kickboxing etc etc.
but i find sparring ok but its different to learning how to fight....kind regards

[brentlance]

hi brent how often do you sparr? as i only do it 2 or 3 times a week ....i go to different instructors gyms ...boxing and kickboxing etc etc.
but i find sparring ok but its different to learning how to fight....kind regards


I spar as often as I can, sometimes its 2 or 3 times a week, I would spar a lot more if I had easy access to sparring partners. When I spar, it usually is for about 40 minutes at a time. And I have to drive to get to do it. But I think its worth it to spar.

Sparring is definitely different from fighting, but not as different as practicing katas/forms, pad drills, bags, etc. I mean if two people practice similar technique and drills, but only one of them spar, who do you think would have an advantage fighting.

Make sparring as real as it can be and still be relatively safe. I don't think people should kill each other, but the more intense (alive) you can make it, the better it will help hone skills. Then, take it for what it is, just sparring.

Now, if you want real practice I guess you could visit certain establishments and start fights. But that would be pretty stupid.

[Geoff]

I agree mate.. its lucky i have a few mates in the boxing and kickboxing etc that we can just have a few 4 minute sensible rounds...
I have a friend whos a sgt in tthe parachutre regiment and he used to tell me that all the sparring he did was light medium and that in his whole time he never got to the point where he wanted to knock the guy out.......that was left to the ring...although saying that he came back with a few bruises but nothing serious.
thanks for your insight mate

[frankiefuller]

Hey, a few days ago in class I was doing a jiu-jitsu move, and I had a different ending to the move, using a different armbar than the instructor did with a slight variation. I was supposed to tuck the arm under the waist instead and do that armbar. I said, "Hey, the first one works too." They said, "That's great. Now, do what the Renshi wants you to do." So they told me to do the one the teacher showed me instead of make up my own. I asked the teacher again if the notes were good he had from that certain style I mentioned passed down to him that contained the original notes (and all the secrets) from that style. He said yes, they were really awesome, but I realized that I couldn't look at them anyway yet because I'm not a master or a Renshi or whatever. It's not fair. The teacher gets all the secrets and won't let me have access to the really awesome stuff, even to just to get a peek. I asked him once if I could just see a few pages that he might be able to copy for me, but sorry, I couldn't. I hate that.

Did Bruce ever tell Bob Bremer, "Sorry, you can't see my training notes wtih my training secrets, or the stuff that the old masters gave me. You have to get to Master level first, and then we'll think about it." Did he ever tell Bob or other guys, "hey, that's a good move, but sorry, you have to do the sequence just like I showed you, or the move just like that. You can play with it once you become a Master."

[lssanjose]

Frank, the secrets are there. You just have to keep open your eyes and mind open.

[Arron Grammond]

As I recall from various people, Bruce didn't like the Title of "Master" in any language. Not even for himself.

I have a secret style that will set you free from all your limitations... Its called "Grip of Craftman." Sent me $50 I'll mail you a pair of Pliers and the secret instructions on how to remove the fish hook from the side of your mouth... :wink:

All in fun man...

[john]

I asked him once if I could just see a few pages that he might be able to copy for me, but sorry, I couldn't. I hate that.



Thats because the books empty. When you get to that level you can make it up yourself, hence empty book.

[cfr]

In Asia, people would perform katas, or dances in front of the royalty as entertainment...


Why dont the royalty just go to strip clubs??? 8)

[frankiefuller]

I asked him once if I could just see a few pages that he might be able to copy for me, but sorry, I couldn't. I hate that.



Thats because the books empty. When you get to that level you can make it up yourself, hence empty book.

Seriously, he has some hardcore hands-off knowledge to regulars. I know for a fact that he has access to stuff that few have been able to get, just from the names he was associated with and the people he studied under. I swear, even if I show somebody techniques, I tell them where they're from and hide nothing. I will never, EVER keep things "secret" from my own students until they are "worthy." Heck, I'll let them see all the stuff they want to see. Maybe Bruce got in trouble because he revealed all the "secrets" that the other Chinese masters didn't want him to show the general public. I think he just said too much and showed ordinary people too much, which made the Chinese community angry for breaking the old traditions of passing the scrolls on only to the most worthy students. Please, JKD guys, don't hide anything from students if there is something valuable that you think they could learn by studying some great stuff that you have access to. Don't get a big head just because you have some kind of "sacred scrolls" on you. Gosh darnit, it's not like I'm going to go to the "evil" ninja fortress across the forest and reveal the secrets of the "good" ninja to try to overthrow his compound. I still don't understand why people think it's the days of the warring samurai, where people needed to practice in secret. Some of these historical preservation societies have gone way too far with this garbage of keeping everything so enclosed within their own groups. Hopefully JKD will never get this way.

[john]

The point is you need all that info when your a beginner ....NOT... when your advanced...because when your advanced you make it up anyway....so....karate man talk shit :wink:

[frankiefuller]

The point is you need all that info when your a beginner ....NOT... when your advanced...because when your advanced you make it up anyway....so....karate man talk shit :wink:

I wonder why some of the dojo teachers do the opposite then, teach more stuff when the student gets advanced instead of at the beginning. Is it a proving ground, or a way to milk more money out of the student? I hate this--shell out the bucks, finally pass all the tests, and get to the level to get the really good stuff. However, then after all the money before, you have to pay yet again to keep getting the good stuff to further your training. However, I want all the knowledge, everything that's going to make me a better martial artist and good at defending myself. I have to keep collecting black belts to get to all the great stuff. Heck, I already have 2 different black belts (1 4th dan, another 1st dan) and am halfway to my 3rd and 4th black belts, all in different systems. I even have a belt in a fifth system, and am studying a 6th one at least (besides JKD stuff). The JKD is only going to enhance the foundation stuff. But I will admit, I had to shell out a lot of bucks, plus years of training to get to this point. If I had to do all the 19 years of training all over again, I would tell someone to find a way to condense all the stuff and make it more merit-based than time-based. I would strongly agree with someone if they asked me if someone could learn all of that in less time than that many years and that much money, I would tell that person to make it happen if possible.

There has got to be a better way to get all of the great stuff down from 19 years into just a few years if trained the right way. I would cheat--I would offer to teach someone everything I know, lay everything out on the table , despite my old masters getting angry at me for offering the knowledge to anyone at an accelerated pace and not doing it the "proper way," if possible to learn that fast. I think it's certainly plausible, given the approach the JKD guys have of incorporating everything. Maybe the key is learning to put it all together simultaneously instead of just practicing one art, then another art, then another art. It makes more sense when you can see everything done side-by-side. If you want to be honest about how to get as good as the guys at the higher levels faster, you can throw out the BS and get straight to the good stuff. Start looking at practical things that stick to you instead of letting the student get stuck in bad habits. You just get a bunch of old masters together who are pretty open-minded and get them to get down and dirty with the stuff that works. If they've seen everything, they certainly should know what is good for the student and can probably teach them the best stuff over a much shorter period of time than it took me.

I know this approach can definitely work. If karate guys taught like they teach some of the people I've seen all the time, people would be able to be better fighters within a MUCH shorter period of time it seems. For instance, instead of making a beginning student wait for years and years to become a decent fighter, start him right away with the good stuff, the REALLY good stuff. Just for evidence, I saw a karate 4th dan train for months to get ready for a 1st dan in jiu-jitsu, meeting quite often in a dojo with a jiu-jitsu 5th dan, it seems like they were going at it for hours a day. This higher-ranked black belt got all the good "black belt" and "advanced training" far beyond what is normally offered to regular students. After just a few months, the 4th dan karate guy was allowed to test for his 1st in jiu-jitsu and passed. He did in a few months what they tell us takes, they tell us, on average about 6-7 years. Now, instead of just teaching black belts like that, why don't they teach everybody how to get that good that quickly? If this is proof that some people can learn faster than the karate guys are offering to ordinary people (the non-black belts), then it means that they could definitely be doing much more than they are at the moment. I think if the basic principles to multiple arts are combined early enough, people should be able to advance like this. It's not fair--why do I have to be stuck at blue belt and wait 2-3 more years to advance slowly and get that good that fast when the karate guy was able to get his black belt that quickly? Can't they train me like that too? Maybe the karate guys are scared, not wanting to admit that they might lose money if people knew that they could get this kind of training and learn the principles over such a short period of time. The private lessons probably cost the karate 4th dan some money, but he was able to get the really good stuff I've been talking about.

[john]

Some things need to be held back because of ethics but karate land takes it a bit too far.

[frankiefuller]

I wonder what the heck I'm going to do with all these belts someday that are lying around. All of my belts under black belts I've gotten rid of and used for progressing students and I've kept each dan rank I've gotten, (1st dan, 2nd dan, etc.). They save me money when students advance and I don't have to buy new belts. My old black belts just sit in a closet or gather mold in the garage. Should I erect a monument or just stuff them in a cabinet? The certificates I get keep piling up in my desk drawer. They don't mean I can fight, just are relics that you can show off to your friends and put them away with all the other junk that you get and forget about. OK, I progress a level in a martial art, big deal? The interesting thing is I've taken so many different tests using many different katas that most of them you just forget later on (especially after switching to another style or going on to something else). The katas seem to be relics that one doesn't use anymore unless you're studying a particular style or for forms competitions (which I don't really do anyway). There are tons of katas that just go out the window after a certain point in time, and the only thing left I remember from some styles after years are certain techniques that are retained. For example, I remember this neat breakaway from Kajukenpo (that I took for 6 months and got a few belts) from a cross-wrist grab but don't remember the katas, just the techniques. The only katas I really do regularly are the ones in styles when I'm forced to cram quickly for a new belt test and then forget about them unless they make me do them in class. I still don't know, but do belts really do everything and everything for showing successful rank progression? Maybe the point is that in life the fancy moves and katas are supposed to be forgotten but the useful techniques retained. Maybe this is a good strategy for studying a system. Take a style for awhile, do another one and forget about the old system for 10 years and see what was useful that you remember. You will probably realize that only a few techniques stick with you, but the few that do are probably pretty functional, which is why your body still remembers them after so many years. Maybe the katas get you to a certain level to where you don't need them anymore and you just go with the true practical techniques of a style. Does this make sense?

[Arron Grammond]

Use all the old belts to restrap an old lawn chair...
Then you can kick back on them and reflect on all the years you put into obtaining them and marvel at how they do such a good job supporting your weary bones now. :wink:

some of my old belts are now being used to hold rolled sleeping bags or similar.

[frankiefuller]

OK, if you can have a million uses for old belts (like tying newspapers together or sleeping bags), what can you do with old katas? They have to go somewhere.

Also, is it possible to do katas with JKD techniques and stances substituted instead of karate ones, or would that defeat the purpose of JKD? How do you practice fighting imaginary opponents using katas? Is it better to have the human there or does it really matter? Sometimes they tell me to practice the kata 5 times in a box (on the puzzle squares that form each box for the mat) to work on footwork and making myself stay in the box. I do sparring anyway to get some work in every once in awhile with guys outside of the school, but I'm still not sure if practicing the kata in a box is going to help my sparring footwork or improve my movement.

[Arron Grammond]

OK, if you can have a million uses for old belts (like tying newspapers together or sleeping bags), what can you do with old katas? They have to go somewhere.

How about researching Cliff Claven's (Cheers) Buffalo Theory about Beer and brain cells. That might help with clear out the Kata's :wink:

[frankiefuller]

Collected another TKD black belt today from a prestigious organization in Korea (Moo Duk Kwan). Passed an evaluation. This is becoming a hobby. Wonder if I can set a world record for black belts. It's all to prove a point. Someday I'll take all of these and waive them around to people explaining how the belt means nothing without realistic training drills. I'll tell them, here, the belts can be gotten with pretty forms and stuff, but don't let that make your training based around techinques that will make you stiff and mechanical. Be more fluid and practice outside of Karateland. You can still do the arts, but please remember to separate the art form of martial arts from the street form. Maybe if I win enough of them, they can be prizes for a lottery or a good way to hold my books when walking around school.

Now have 3 different black belts (one Kukkiwon--WTF TKD, one a modern style of TKD that I have done for years, and now Moo Duk Kwan one). Looking to add ITF TKD to the mix after this, which would add a 4th one if I pass. What the heck, to advance in these you have to know a lot of forms, sparring, breaking boards, and showing good technique in a horse stance and big walking stances. Not sure what it means except I can have the piece of paper to make money teaching people stuff and doing forms for fun (except I really would rather make a JKD type of TKD or karate technique). Trying to work on the karate and jiu-jitsu black belts now also (which would be 5 and 6). If you go to karate land, you may never want to return if you get too caught up in all that mindset. The trophy collection will be full after a few years, but the JKD is going to only make it 10 times better. Throw out all the black belts and practice on the JKD guys, and you could still get your butt kicked if you don't train properly. I had to do some really archaic forms for the evaluation. They were strange and probably useless outside of Karateland if you do not know how to use them.

Collected another TKD black belt today from a prestigious organization in Korea (Moo Duk Kwan). Passed an evaluation. This is becoming a hobby. Wonder if I can set a world record for black belts. It's all to prove a point. Someday I'll take all of these and waive them around to people explaining how the belt means nothing without realistic training drills. I'll tell them, here, the belts can be gotten with pretty forms and stuff, but don't let that make your training based around techinques that will make you stiff and mechanical. Be more fluid and practice outside of Karateland. You can still do the arts, but please remember to separate the art form of martial arts from the street form. Maybe if I win enough of them, they can be prizes for a lottery or a good way to hold my books when walking around school.

Now have 3 different black belts (one Kukkiwon--WTF TKD, one a modern style of TKD that I have done for years, and now Moo Duk Kwan one). Looking to add ITF TKD to the mix after this, which would add a 4th one if I pass. What the heck, to advance in these you have to know a lot of forms, sparring, breaking boards, and showing good technique in a horse stance and big walking stances. Not sure what it means except I can have the piece of paper to make money teaching people stuff and doing forms for fun (except I really would rather make a JKD type of TKD or karate technique). Trying to work on the karate and jiu-jitsu black belts now also (which would be 5 and 6). If you go to karate land, you may never want to return if you get too caught up in all that mindset. The trophy collection will be full after a few years, but the JKD is going to only make it 10 times better. Throw out all the black belts and practice on the JKD guys, and you could still get your butt kicked if you don't train properly. I had to do some really archaic forms for the evaluation. They were strange and probably useless outside of Karateland if you do not know how to use them. I find it incrediably annoying that Mr. Full er has so much contemp for what he has paid for in this field. Tae Kwon Do Black Belts are not cheap. You are insane to think that you can change the mind of a whole organization that believe in what they do. I also find it hard to belive that that you have a black belt at all. You dismiss your instruction as insuffient than why do it? If you have better answers that go open you own Dojang and call it some really special like "JKD/TKD Connection as taught by MASTER FRANKIE FULLER." I wish I had more time to write but I am at work, not training in something I don't believe in and becoming jaded and bitter. Every Martial Art has a practical side to it, but it is usually taught by warriors to warriors, not ingrates and phonies.

my two cents,

Rudy Franco

Asst. Instructor under Lloyd Kennedy in Combat Jujutsu

[frankiefuller]

Any of form instruction helps because it makes you a better MA. Unfortunately, some martial arts ARE taught by ingrates and phonies. I have experienced several cultish-types of martial arts and political backstabbing, which is why it's good to know early where an organization is headed before it gets really bad. I hate the fact that the bad apples bring everybody else down. Getting those black belts was still pretty tough nevertheless. I believe in a lot of the stuff I'm training in, just get a little disenchanted when I look back at all of the crooked people I've dealt with over the years. There is a lot of good, but also a lot of bad. I guess I got cynical because of the multiple abuses of people I've seen of the arts they practice. It made me so shocked to see some of the stuff I've seen some martial artists do that I have to think to myself why I was there. Perhaps this is why I'm being skeptical of some of those arts. I wish I hadn't seen some of the things that I had, but that stuff happens anyway. I wish people think more deeply sometimes about why they are practicing particular arts or what decisions they make. I am a fan of cross-training because it gets you thinking more out of the box--however, some just have trouble finding good ways to put multiple arts together. It's good to practice some things that seem awkward because it teaches you how to perform out of your element. I sincerely hope that people don't make up false claims about arts or do things that are damaging to themselves or their peers in the long run. I'm lucky I was able to avoid the systems that suck your money dry and get out before the fees get out of control. This happens every so often, and usually beginners are just not aware of these things. I hate the attitude of some instructors--I knew martial artists who admitted to me that they could teach more effective stuff, but actually told me to my face that "That stuff is too complicated for regular people. They'll get bored if we teach them that stuff, so let's just give them the simple stuff to keep them coming" or said something to that effect. It bothered me when clearly the material could use some work, and they didn't care that there might have been a better approach that they just chose to ignore outright instead of use because it doesn't "suit" what they believe will work. Watch out for this--some people really are in the business for the money instead of love of the arts, so please don't get sucked in. All I'm saying is that the really good instructors are out there, and the genuine ones are the guys who will give you everything and not lie to you that you are going to be a badass in 3 years just because you sign up at this particular school after saying, "Oh yes, and you can get the Super Secret Agent Training if you join our Super Black Belt club and get a few tips from the Master himself," and so on.

[cfr]

In other MA forums people are called TROLLS for ongoing crap like this. Is there a name for them here?

In other MA forums people are called TROLLS for ongoing crap like this. Is there a name for them here? You are not implying that this conversation is being conducted by trolls? Because, you can ask Tim Tackett who I am. If you need some sort of verification. Do you train with Richard in Phoenix? If you do, you can ask him about me.

[cfr]

In other MA forums people are called TROLLS for ongoing crap like this. Is there a name for them here? You are not implying that this conversation is being conducted by trolls? Because, you can ask Tim Tackett who I am. If you need some sort of verification. Do you train with Richard in Phoenix? If you do, you can ask him about me.

I wasnt referring to you. Yes I train with Richard.

Say Hello to Richard for me.

[cfr]

In other MA forums people are called TROLLS for ongoing crap like this. Is there a name for them here? You are not implying that this conversation is being conducted by trolls? Because, you can ask Tim Tackett who I am. If you need some sort of verification. Do you train with Richard in Phoenix? If you do, you can ask him about me.

In fact, perhaps I was being a bit hasty altogether. Perhaps I shouldnt have said anything and my perceptions were off.

My bad.

In my opinion, it is okay to say something. I am going to thank you for your apology. Many times individuals don't show the proper respect when they make mistakes. cfr is a prime example of how forum should be conducted.

[frankiefuller]

Now it all makes sense to me. Joe helped me a lot here when I realized that certain rigid training methods are stuck in the 10th century, as Brent said. All the training from the traditional arts are quite effective that I've had, but in a way they can make you think only how another person in Karateland attacks. It is only certain practices that can make you too caught up in how others fight. So many cultures overlap now that everyone is exposed to different styles and can learn to adapt to other methods outside of the unchanging katas. Katas are passed down to remind us that people fight certain ways against certain weapons, but if the weapon changes or the body type, terrain, or any of those factors change, a different fighting method may be needed. Because most people can read now and people can get multiple exposures to different arts, fighting only in one method will not help much. Also, the katas were designed for battle, as Joe said. I guess people don't fight armies a particular way anymore and battle armor because we might use something other than spears if we are walking down the street in the 21st century. Maybe they could update katas to show gun defense? Rudy was onto something when he said why waste time training in something that may not prove effective to me? I guess it's because they tell me learning the katas will make me a better martial artist, so I do it anyway. I do alot of different stuff, and if I do what they say, I'll get better at certain things by learning the methods. Even if I think katas are somewhat outdated to a certain degree, what they tell me is important to get the black belt. I have to be like an automaton and do what they say until I can make the rules someday--going through the process will bring me wisdom and hopefully help me get to the good stuff and prove my worth to them (especially the stubborn karate teacher I mentioned that mentions Karateland frequently). Just like driving to work, I have to go through the motions of the katas anyway if I want to get to the elite training level of the Karateland Master. Mindless repetition will hopefully bring me great rewards someday. You don't question, you just do the stuff because they tell you to; the rewards on the other side of the fence are greater once I get to that point. Is it good to pretend to be in battle against armies of ancient samurai? Will the training against imaginary sword-wielding opponents with battle armor help me to learn defense against street thugs with guns and knives?

[brentlance]

Frankie,

Coming from the only person on the forum who has trained with you, I do hate to see you in such a struggle. I can relate in that I learned alot of stuff that I don't use really at all. I have and will continue to offer you advice and training when you can attend my sessions. And as you already know I will give you my HONEST opinion on things.

I cannot, however, show you how to make everything you have learned work from a JKD standpoint, nor do I know anyone that could. I also disagree with trying to blend JKD and something else together for the sake of blending. I think many people get the wrong idea when someone tries to do that.

Most styles are based on techniques, JKD is not really based on techniques. The progression is quite different: Footwork, Tool Development, Attacks/Counters/Defenses, Tactics, and Fighting (sparring) are treated differently in JKD than in most other systems. And to go a step further, the WNG has some of the best methods for developing skills in many areas. Teaching in between the lines so to speak.

I would also say that I don't know how to become a master martial artist, but I would guess that seeking to master something is a step backwards rather than a step forward. If you are good enough at what you do, it doesn't matter what style you are or what rank you have. Or if you have the highest rank in the world, what good is it if you can't deal with anything outside of your element.

Anyway, Tackett has a good article "What have you mastered" on the homepage. Check it out if you haven't already.

Take care

[frankiefuller]

I have decided that when I've got students all around on a mass scale I will still never want anyone to call me a certain "title" in my life, even if I progress to a grandmaster level. I just don't care. It'll be Frankie or Frank or whatever. Maybe it is a burden to call oneself a master anyway. I don't want to get tunnel vision, which can happen if you focus too much on 1 combat method and perfect it, because then everything else around you ceases to exist. These JKD guys here seem to be some of the most flexible and realistic fighters every day. The struggle on the importance of katas is difficult because it is a reality for me everytime I step in the dojo. They say I must do this, I must do that. The hard style fighting of Karateland is important, but I know it will never work against the Wed Nite guys unless there is serious modification of the technique. I would rather have no black belt and want someone to not be able to tell what type of style I do, to be formless. I don't know the relevance of these things, and the Tackett article made me realize that progression in JKD is circular, like he said, and some traditional things I've done are linear. I never want to limit my training. I always want to be able to be adaptable, like these guys are, and get the latest stuff that works. That is the great thing. The JKD crowd here seems formless, without style, no defining characteristics. I could say maybe it's just more Chinese-influenced as a concept, but I could just as easily say karate or TKD is Chinese influenced too (because the roots go back to there anyway). Mastering something with a 1000 black belts is nothing--the question is, could I still beat Bruce Lee with 1000 black belts? I want to think in terms of how to beat Bruce Lee.

Some say Bruce Lee wasn't a good enough martial artist because he didn't study the classical arts enough and couldn't match the superior foundation of dozens of styles of Wong Jak Man in the fight. I've heard Karate Masters say Lee wasn't a "real" martial artist because he just took a mishmash of styles and put them together to call it Jeet Kune Do. Why do some karate masters say this stuff? Why don't some of them like Bruce Lee? The teacher that takes me to Karateland says this stuff about Lee, that he wasn't a true master because he didn't have a solid foundation in a style long enough and just threw stuff together in a pot to call it his art. I've heard some dojo masters laugh when Bruce Lee is mentioned about being a real martial artist. Why didn't he move stiffly across the floor, het didn't train dojo-style in a horse stance or practice katas? He didn't move linearly. Some of them probably think that if Bruce had the proper discipline to learn from a master for a long time, he would have been a better martial artist technique-wise. I bet in the fantasy Karateland, Bruce would have been overwhelmed, and the karateka would pound him to pulp utilizing their classical training method. They probably didn't like him because he didn't give enough respect to the classical arts. A Chinese girl told me Bruce wasn't that good because he didn't train long enough in "real" martial arts--probably because he didn't train like the Shaolin monks or like the youngster who learns from the old master long enough to pass on the style from one lineage to another (like Wong Jak Man probably did).

The question to be asked is, how do you train to defeat Bruce Lee? It can work if you put your mind to it, but you must not get tunnel vision.

[kuanti]

i have learned many different martial art styles over the years and was forced to do katas and every time it came to fight or spar not one thing i learned from the stupid kata EVER interscoped into the fight, my style of fighting became my personal style, it NEVER was what i learned in kata, so thats why i am so enthrawled to have now been studing JKD from jeremy lynch and have gotten the chance to get to tacketts wed night class. i will never go back to thse time wasting meaningless katas that i always argued with my teachers about. katas only make you repetitive and robotic. get off them and develop your own style. you will be a better fighter for it. take your time and spend it on mirrow drills, footwork, kicking and hitting drills, and as much time as you can full contact sparring with different oponents. i am only saying this out of personal sacrifice and experience.

hope my comment drives you the right way

tim.

[Geoff]

hello kuanti, hope its ok to add too this,anyway!! the only reason i think people train katas and forms like they do in some martial arts is that they train that non-intention so they dislove the movements so "it" hits.
just like you learn and isolate different drills, or feeds. obviously training to respond to the "moment" is a far better way off training,and to keep the drill alive through pheripherial awarness and not that fixed pattern training.
But saying that we all need to go through some sort of pattern training thats if your in the process of abiding by the principles and not the techniques.
I think alot off people sometimes isolate things so they drill this over and over again the same thing through the same pattern,,,,,,,,,this allows the muscle memory to learn the movement and then you can disolve the techniques so its like putting ice quabes in a jar and each one you do is like a drill or pattern,(then you disolve the abiding and express your self through alive drills),but i think one has to go through some sort of process to understand how to break away from techniques and learn the principles instead(im not saying im right by the way,just my own opinion)
Now im going to contradict myself....lol i wasnt taught the reference point trapping i learnt the chi sao first so when it came too learn reference point trapping i new most of the traps and all i had to do is absorb different techniques so i could add many tapps and make my own traps up through the energy drill chi sao as a shell so to speak.
I still practice one trap or two trap or three traps over and over again........using both muscle memory trapping(pattern training) or awarness type of trapping inside a ALIVE !!! drill..
ps just my oppinion..maybe someone else can point out there own opinion.thankyou

[brentlance]

The biggest drawback to practicing kata is the fact that most of them are what someone else made up and the student is basically forced to do them in order to get the next piece of information.

There's nothing wrong with isolating some movements and getting the idea of how something may flow, but once you get it you should move on. There's no sense in an instructor making a student feel bound by a pattern, unless he's trying to produce a robot or clone of himself.

Often times, I will begin a session with a pattern of say a lead punch with a push step, a curve step to both the strong and weak sides, a heal and toe sway, a fade and then with a partner have students work on using the footwork and the tool's development. Then discuss and practice the offensive/defensive uses and counters to use and watch for. Then demonstrate how to use certain tactics for the tool's usage. But the pattern or set is broken away from almost immediately as the new student builds confidence and spars using his lead punch against an opponent that's going to try to hit him.

So, ultimately we (jkd) do use methods to facilitate learning, but they are just designed for the specific time and after the principles are understood the pattern is no more.

[kuanti]

again, katas are horseshit. out of all the billion katas i had to learn over the years i think i have now successfully forgot them all! woohoo! out of my mind forever thank god!

[Geoff]

when im taliking about patterns im not nescererly talking about katas.or forms, im taliking about the approach to bruce lee methods on how he trained! when learning a art(any art) one is in that ibiding process when he learns different moves,ie footwork can be done in many ways.ie breaking it down into parts....push shuffle forwards and backwards ,you can do this through reputition or through the beat of sound,or through alive contact driils and that your aware off the many ways you can do it.
If you just pattern train then yes you become a mechanical man....


Even top tennis palyers isolate different things in there training routines and they do it on there own,like serving a ball over the net for many reputitions aslo they do alive drills,so I would say pattern training has its benifits in ones "training method".

[brentlance]

Yeah, what if the tenis player practiced all of the swings day in and day out but never had a match against another opponent. They wouldn't be able to do what they practiced for real. Their backhand may look good in practice, but really would not be functional.

Nobody should say that working on your technique is bad, whether its forms, shadowboxing, isolated drills, etc. But refusing to face the reality that the only way to know what to practice is to spar as many different people as you can, get some good instruction, and work on things. Relying on kata to teach you how to fight a bad idea for most people.

Too bad, some of them believe they are good fighters because they do "good kata". The reality is that they are, for one reason or the other, somewhat scared of fighting. One guy even told me recently that the reason he didn't spar and only did kata was that he was far too powerful to spar and would injur his partner too badly. I offered him the opportunity to spar with me and he declined.

I have sparred and fought in the ring with some very talented, hard striking indivduals and this guy is not even close, so I let him know that it's okay to be afraid of contact and I would just go at his pace, but he still refused.

So, I would say that he's an example of a guy who is wasting his time when it comes to learning how to fight. But he thinks he is the man and if he keeps practicing in the dojo vs. imaginary warriors nobody will be able to beat him. The thing is he may never be proven wrong in sparring, but I sure hope that he doesn't get jacked outside his dojo.

[rainman]

Hello, I have been faced with this question over and over again. Some teachers say it's good to practice katas, others say they are not so practical. There are plenty of applications in forms called bunkai, where you break the form down and practice simulated series of techniques against imaginary attackers. We have to do this frequently in karate class besides doing the forms. I try to avoid emphasizing katas too much in my training so I can be prepared for reality-based training, but some of my teachers stress that they help your technique get better and prettier also, as well as more refined. A kata performed well is like a dance. In fact, many katas look like dances. In Asia, people would perform katas, or dances in front of the royalty as entertainment, and the katas themselves come out of praying positions, breathing exercises, and dance movements. Doing some jiu-jitsu techniques recently, I noticed that some of the moves performed with a partner look just like a waltz. Is this what martial arts should feel like, performing an elegant dance? Should we be "dancing" with the partner with pre-arranged drills and performing the movements in response to the opponent's reaction? If you watch Capoiera, it looks like a dance. They have an instrument playing in the background while the two "dance" and perform acrobatic movements. Wonder if JKD should be the same. Do katas perfect one's techniques? However, I saw some grandmasters doing a karate kata recently that had the crane kick in it from the karate kid with the arms moving around, and I thought that movement didn't look very practical. Is combat like a dance, or are katas just an outdated relic from the dances that were performed in front of the royal courts? I wonder why JKD has no katas because they seem to like doing vicious, raw techniques instead of practicing pre-arranged, complicated series of techniques on imaginary opponents. There is one karate kata that refers to breaking through the fortress in a castle, and I'm assuming it refers to one imagining oneself fighting armed attackers and breaking through enemy lines into the enemy's stronghold.

[rainman]

i think it´s important to see the essential different meaning of form and kata!
kata is a method to train various motions in fixed combinations. in this case you can imagine opponents, but they comme and go in fixed angles and ways.
a form is an abstraction of motions. in that way your concentration should be only in this motion without any opponents!
forms are important to learn little motions and their energy flow.
but for realistic training with the imagin of attackers, shadow boxing or kicking is more effective and much more alive then forms!

greats-rainman

[rainman]

sorry!
...more effective and much more alive than KATAS!!! :oops: