is JKD right for me?

[cfr]

I will be the first to say that my experience is very limited. That being said, my opinion may change from either time or gaining more experience.

My instructor is very in to being at a long range. Having to step in to hit/ be hit. I would (despite my experience) rather be in close. I want to get used to the clinch. I want to do lots of combos up close involving punches/ elbows/ and knees.

Is this the wrong mentality for a JKD'er? Should I find another style if thats what I want? Or can JKD (as taught through the Tim Tackett lineage) work for me?

Again, I may realize that this range sucks and my thinking change on the subject. but for now, thats where Im at.

[cfr]

Having to setp in to hit, or be hit that is a reactional and action is faster than reaction, a common principle that in reality would get one hit first before one could step in and hit. It must be as you become more familiar with JKD hit all in one motion, usually first, not waiting for an attack. It that the way you understand it or step in an hit dues to not being experience. I.e. footwork, anticipation of tatics.

The only way to know is go there, and get the benefit of tim and the others, should tim tackett lineage work for you, have you tried it out yet.


What I mean is "should someone that wants to learn to fight close in be in JKD, or another style"?

Yes Ive tried it.

[frankiefuller]

I'll tell you what. There are a lot of MMA guys out there, and there are a lot of guys who have grappling training who have enough experience to know what works. There are some teachers who are really flexible and who will not make you go through all the BS in grappling to get straight to the point of what works. You can take a grappling style, but some of the systems make you go through alot of crap and unrealstic garbage along with the training before you get to the really good stuff, in order to "earn" the right to learn it. The teachers that have been through all of this and know the good stuff and aren't afraid to teach it to you, find these guys. They have nothing to hide and no profit motive behind what they teach. Watch for the systems that develop around a cult of personality, because they are out there. I think some people didn't like Bruce Lee because he taught all the training secrets immediately, without waiting until someone has the right to "earn" the belt or had to train under a master for a certain amount of time before he got the really awesome stuff. There are probably some JKD guys who have run the ropes and been through all of that and discarded the crap to bare it down to the basics that work.

My goal, in the long run, is to beg for mercy under one of my instructors until I can get to the good stuff and earn my way up there. Once I get the good stuff in JJ I want, I will turn around and teach everything without any reservations or restrictions in the silly little game of someone proving their "worth" to me. However, I know plenty of people where I can just step around the corner and learn the Kuntao stuff that my instructor only teaches to his black belts and I can get some of it immediately from a few local guys (of course I won't tell my instructor if I ever do this). Anyway, take the above advice and find the guys who will give you everything without profit motive or any of that "you can learn the true art once you eanr your way there by getting through the sub-par stuff."

[Tim Tackett]

If you're taking JKD only it might be a good idea to look into learning some grappling also.

[cfr]

If you're taking JKD only it might be a good idea to look into learning some grappling also.

Tim doesnt JKD address grappling/ closer range? Is my mindset just not right for a JKD'er?

[cfr]

JKD covers all ranges. I think the WNG has also added a few things from other arts for the in-fighting.

Whats WNG?

[Tim Tackett]

While it covers all ranges, Chinatown JKD did not stress the close range. One of Inosanto's guys would be good to train with as they added Thai, kali and shoot to what they teach. All are great at the clinch range. I would guss that most people who teach JKD know some of these arts. While in Chinatown Bruce didnot do much with knees and elbows, but wrote a lot of his personal notes about them.

[Tim Tackett]

Actually the way the Thai fighters use their elbows are quite effective.

[Arron Grammond]

While it covers all ranges, Chinatown JKD did not stress the close range. One of Inosanto's guys would be good to train with as they added Thai, kali and shoot to what they teach. All are great at the clinch range. I would guss that most people who teach JKD know some of these arts. While in Chinatown Bruce didnot do much with knees and elbows, but wrote a lot of his personal notes about them.

The knees has some weakness, as punching the legs, groin, and takedowns, as for elbows, those too have their weakness, at it needs to connect to be effective and recovery is not so good. In chinatown bruce must have use the effective part of knees and elbows in that it would be as effective if it is intercepted, and beyond it normal range needs bodyweight and leverage to be effective. I don,t think he ignored knees and elbows but saw the pitfall of not landing and having a different strategy about knees and elbows. A punch into a knee i.e leg while doing a knee, or shovel hook punch into the leg or calves, would put the opponent at a distinct disadvantage the same goes for elbows, dues to its natura of leaving one off balance if missed or footwork place one in a better interception position that the opponent throwing an elbow. Apart from grabs and other stuff that golves makes very hard to do, which an open hand can. They are effective in the right context, but as bruce i assume noted in his notes their are quite a lot of loop holes to be taken into consideration when using knees and elbows.

Uh.... As Tim says. They are effective.

We were training last week and we have a guy who was a college wrestler. He a big guy and has probably 20-30 pounts on me. I had just got back from vacation and my back and shoulders were totally sunburnt and the skin comming off (it hurt but I still trained). Well when he gets fustrated with new JKD drills he gets a little rough and likes to ad lib in with wrestling takdowns. All good, I'll let people take me down in practice and just lightly thump them places to let them see they are open.

He does a leg shoot and I roll onto my back and he climbs into a top mount and is tring to get my arms. Well between his weight, my weight, and my sun burn I wanted to get off my shoulders. I'm holding a kill instinct responce down from the sunburn pain and decided to try getting his weight off by kneeing him in the shoulder.

I pop him with a knee thinking its just going to move him off, instead he tried to duck into it or something and I get him in the side of the head. It opened his skin in a 2 inch? slice above the eye brown. He rolls off holding his head and gets up staggering around bleeding, NOT good. I'm not sure what happened because it didn't feel like that much of an impact.

He had to do a compress on it to stop the bleeding. He was cool about it afterwards and I apologized. We continuded training but were much less agressive.

The point is all the strikes have a time and place, you just need to use them when appropriate. A knee move from 10 feet away is not very effective, a knee or an elbow in close range is devistating, even without full power, focus, or intent behind it. I've closed tight on boxers many times before because I'm at a power striking range with elbows and knees. While They are too far inside thier trained power range.

Sure like anything it could be blocked, BUT as anyone with fighting experience knows, You can't block everything. Add in fakes, distractions and changing up the line of attack... Not even mentioning the effect of a moment of stun being exploited.

Moderation in all things, over focus and over training in one isolated area leaves you open to all the others. Someone who is medium good at all aspects WILL take someone who is only mastered one aspect.

Don't limit yourself be dismissing tools. A master with a hammer is not so good if what your trying to do is saw a board in half. Just as true that you can't drive a nail with a saw very well. You need all the right tools to build a house. Just the same a wood saw doesn't work very well if your working with bricks. Think about this a bit.

Feedback everyone?

[Tim Tackett]

Arron,
Great post. Have you been able to get together with Richard again?
Tim

[Arron Grammond]

I'm sorry to say I have not, Tuesday/Thursday are my regular training days that I've negotiated for :wink:

My wife is currently training on Wednesdays to run a marathon for the next month or so. Then Saturday she is working at her 2nd job at Century 21. So I'm getting quality time with my 16 month old son Wed and Sat.

It is a goal of mine to get back over there though, as I enjoyed it very much. :D

[Arron Grammond]

If you get hit anywhere with a concealed weapon its going to hurt. There is a L shaped tool with a finger "O" on it thats used similar to a roll of coins, as a hooking tool, a pressure point device and a grappling rake. It hurts all over the body.

Hell for that matter a bic pen or even my favorite Uni-ball Micro are lethal and perfectly legal on airplanes. As a target knees and elbows are no more or less a weakness than any other part of the body (if manipulated a certain way)

The point is really about using them as weapons. Tai, Kali (a little open of a term), etc. both use them. I'm not talking the wild Holly Wood Tai elbows/knees but tight fast strikes. The Kali destructive block elbows are great but so is the old boxing elbow like a hook.

Think about a classic JKD front lead punch. The rear hand is up guarding the face, loading in position to elbow strike up/down/horizontal. One small shuffle step forward and its perfect elbow range. Especially if you have stepped on their foot when you did the punch, instead of next to their foot (as in Bruce's shin guard/Opponent press position is) A quick downward elbow and they go from a slanted back (soild punch and foot pined " \ " to flat on their back " __ " when the elbow comes down anywhere from the hips to the head.

Also observe the anatomy of a elbow. Its a lot more BONE than your hand. There is no compression of joints and bone parts as the hand does. Think about bare hands fighting. Fist VS top of Skull, the hand breaks first normlly. Elbow VS the top of the Skull, the skull breaks first normally. Assuming one has enough of a clue to not hit with your funny bone...lol

Using it should mesh with all JKD methods and reasons. It should be simple, fast, powerful. Gloves, no gloves... it doesn't matter.

Hell I'm not too proud to hit you with my shoulder or hips if I get the opportunity and its my best shot to take. :wink:

[Arron Grammond]

If you get hit anywhere with a concealed weapon its going to hurt. There is a L shaped tool with a finger "O" on it thats used similar to a roll of coins, as a hooking tool, a pressure point device and a grappling rake. It hurts all over the body.

Hell for that matter a bic pen or even my favorite Uni-ball Micro are lethal and perfectly legal on airplanes. As a target knees and elbows are no more or less a weakness than any other part of the body (if manipulated a certain way)

The point is really about using them as weapons. Tai, Kali (a little open of a term), etc. both use them. I'm not talking the wild Holly Wood Tai elbows/knees but tight fast strikes. The Kali destructive block elbows are great but so is the old boxing elbow like a hook.

Think about a classic JKD front lead punch. The rear hand is up guarding the face, loading in position to elbow strike up/down/horizontal. One small shuffle step forward and its perfect elbow range. Especially if you have stepped on their foot when you did the punch, instead of next to their foot (as in Bruce's shin guard/Opponent press position is) A quick downward elbow and they go from a slanted back (soild punch and foot pined " \ " to flat on their back " __ " when the elbow comes down anywhere from the hips to the head.

Also observe the anatomy of a elbow. Its a lot more BONE than your hand. There is no compression of joints and bone parts as the hand does. Think about bare hands fighting. Fist VS top of Skull, the hand breaks first normlly. Elbow VS the top of the Skull, the skull breaks first normally. Assuming one has enough of a clue to not hit with your funny bone...lol

Using it should mesh with all JKD methods and reasons. It should be simple, fast, powerful. Gloves, no gloves... it doesn't matter.

Hell I'm not too proud to hit you with my shoulder or hips if I get the opportunity and its my best shot to take. :wink:
The elbow can be used more of a cutting tool to create an opening, indirect attack. Upon the knees, i.e side of leg, does not need a knowledge of pressure points a slight tap should give a good dead leg.

The boxing elbow follows a similiar path to the hook, the blow is there but a boxer even in emergency would not use it and prefer to use his favourite tool. That the point I am trying to make one favourite tool for striking only it has lost it,s range and function, can become a weakpoint in one aresenal, as the big gun that does not land, but light artilerry cut it down. Although I can see some fighters makes the elbow very fast, and with good footwork unseen but felt. But as the opponent are usually not as fast as the elbow throwers, and don,t use interception but block or cover up, or have any lead punch, apart a left jab, that would not stop their kid sister.

The other point i like to make is that usually one hand, throws the blow, and the other does not work simultaneously with the throw elbow to create opening and tie the opponent up, to say a grappling range throw, or take down, i.e sprawling and taking the opponent trap hands and head first to the ground. Again the favourite techinique restrict one to certain throw, clinch, and methods, that is perfect in the right ring circumstances.

But given other options, such as hands traps and body throws on the head, an elbow on top of the skull has it place but not always practical, i.e. especially if the opponent is good at takedown, the elbow needs leverage to land. The boxing and kail elbow offers more short range shock power, especially if one uses bodymechanics, rather than leverage (distance factor) to land an elbow, plus certain body mechanics.

Stamping upon the feet like that one, an old trick, and some wing chun type kicks are very good to uproot someone with a knee attack. No pressure point accuracy needed to disable a knee strike, a simple punch to the calves or outside of the legs soon make one realize that knees have a weakness factor that can be exploited, a punch or strike upon the buttocks, ouch, or the old crown jewels, and leave the opponent hobbling about not being able to stand. No martial knowledge a "dead leg" as easy as striking the legs even the calves, plus the embarrasement of being struck upon the buttock, by a fist hope the ref is not watching.

I'm not bothering to stomp on the foot just step on it as I do the shuffle step forward to lead hand JKD punch. I want it subtle and PIN the foot. They try to shuffle back or side step and end up jerking to a short stop and off balance. 9 times out of 10 it takes them a few moments to figure out why their movement came up short. At that point you could Silat stomp/walk up thier leg or drive a knee in with the rear leg while you continure to stand on their foot. All sorts of options. It even works when they are expecting it often times. Followed by "dangit you got me again!"

Personally I don't like big throws or submission joint locks. Granted small circles JJ was lots of fun but I want the opponent in my control and down as quickly as possible. Also as close to me as I can get with as little contact as possible, untill they are out of commision. If I have to use the energy to get both hands on you at once to control you I'm being polite and just tring to get you into a pain compliancy. In a fight I want you OUT of the fight so I can deal with your buddies, while not hurrting any non-combatants.

If the elbow and knees are employed properly your entire body weight, plus muscle power, tourque/rotation and everything should transmit through it like the JKD punches. Not just an arm and shoulder behind it. Over 200 lbs of force transmitted through my bony elbow into you...

When I'm kneeing someone and they are using the tai pads... If they are not comming off the floor at least a foot with a shocked look on their face, I'm having a really off day. Its almost the same displacement with the elbows. Kicks, Punches, Everything should benifit from all your power and mechanics.

I realize we are picking at nits here and we will likely not agree at all, but I want to make sure that other people reading this understand that not everything works the same for everyone. While I might suck at something someone else will be devistating with it. They should learn it to understand it and to see if it fits their fighting mechanics.

As far as attacking the knees, legs and elbows. Its a little harder than it sounds. I've taken hits to me upper legs that have later turned into lumps where fatty deposits filled in where the skin and muscle separated. It didn't slow me down in the slightest. Just as with any strike too, there is 20 ways to block and defend. Hitting my claves, sure, if you sneak up behind me. Its the latteral blasts to the knees that blows them, but it takes a LOT of pressure still. Also if its directly on from the front its even harder. Go research the medical data on this and see just how much pressure it takes... You'll be amazed.

If I can do these things at least 100,000 others can too. I can only draw from my experience... and I'm not superman.

[Arron Grammond]

In training to strike with knees and elbows its hard to find people that will let you blast them repeatly without the pads. :wink: I was refering to training. In a fight I'd be having a bad day if they didn't drop after getting a clean shot in like that.

Why bother going after the head? Again I'd have to tie up my hands to pull the head down and control them first to strike, which is fine. I'd rather catch a groin, ribs, or guts instead though as if using my hands for hitting other parts of them or as I defend.

With your sumo guy, another tactic might be explored. Still we are talking about knee and elbow applications. If he sumo shoots in then I might just launch forward as well and try to joust him with the knee and hope I don't get under him. Another line might be to step out in a "Swinging gate" type move and use an elbow to keep him from getting a wrap on my body?

Its all speculation; what if, then how about, but then perhaps, and he might...

I just noticed one part of your last post;
"a short range kail elbow to the knee strike can also pursuade the most ardent fan of the knee it is a limb like any other limb not a steel rod,"
What do I see? Now your talking about using elbows to show that knees are vulnerable...lol Then you close with "Apart from all that the knees and elbows used wisely can be a formidable weapon" If we are debating a point, stay on your side of the fence...lol

Like I said ALL parts of the body are vulnerable to something and you can't block everything.

I don't have the best conditioning and I'm pretty average over all. It still takes more than a little wack to make muscles spasm and knot up unless you catch a nerve right. Its not something that most people even with some training can do. Kicking well is one of the most under trained aspects anymore and low line defence is normally crap for most people. Then again some people are prone to cramps so they might be easier to trigger than others?

Then again I'm not talking about a RING application so much as street application here. So any dirty trick that works is fare game.

Well thats all for me today, stay safe everyone. Thanks for taking the time to converse wit me Joe. It has been a good conversation. :wink: