Shamrock vs Carruthers?

[Rayzor08]

Supposedly one of the Shamrocks challenged Tommy Carruthers to a fight or something like that, and Tommy refused (He does not accept challenges). Many people believe either Shamrock would wipe the floor with Tommy. I have not seen enough of either fighter to make an educated decision. I was wondering what you guys think about this?

[steve stifler]

I think how many people would somebody on the level of the Shamrock's even bother giving the time of day too, never mind going through the hassle of supposedly challenging them?

Also this supposed challenge happened over a year ago and I can't find reference to it anywhere other than it was mentioned on Paul Bax forum by Rafael who has a problem with Tommy Carruthers ever since the Patrick Strong seminar, so I'm not sure if he's a very good independent witness.

[Rayzor08]

But why did he make the challenge in the first place, is he trying to prove to people that Tommy isn't shit compared to him or something? I think it would be an interesting fight.

[john]

I read the challenge. It happened. It was deleted.

Its no big deal. Tommys asnwer was quite level headed and mature. Not like everyone seems to be making out over the net.

Ken posted once on tommys and his member info backs it up

http://www.tommycarruthers.com/cutecast ... enshamrock (http://www.tommycarruthers.com/cutecast/cutecast.pl?action=profile&user=kenshamrock)


People should also realise how this came about and was brought up by ME on Paul Baxs. I brought it up in a discussion with William Holland with regards competitions when he said that no one gets in unless they have a fight record. Not true! I said you just gotta be shit hot.

Well if you wanna read how and why it came up then its on Pauls site.

ps...dont ask me what tommy said unless you have lots of money to offer lol

[steve stifler]

But why did he make the challenge in the first place, is he trying to prove to people that Tommy isn't shit compared to him or something? I think it would be an interesting fight.
Who cares, he is a competitive person and just likes to compete.

Competitive fighters win and lose fights all the time Ken Shamrock won a fight against Masakatsu Funaki in 93 then lost a fight against him in 94 then beat him again in 94. If they had only ever competed the one time in 94 when Ken Shamrock lost, people would be saying that Masakatsu Funaki is the better fighter.

Just because you may beat somebody one time doesn't mean you'll beat them ALL the time.

Also just because somebody else wins or loses a fight using the same "style" as you do doesn't mean that you will have the same outcome in the same situation.

[Rayzor08]

You make some good points Stifler.

But what (or whom) were you refering to by this statement:

"Also just because somebody else wins or loses a fight using the same "style" as you do doesn't mean that you will have the same outcome in the same situation."

Are you speaking of the Shamrocks?

[Tim Tackett]

Razor,
Are you coming to the seminar in Austin with me, Hock, McCann at Dean's the 17th and 18th of this month?
Tim

[Rayzor08]

I would love to more than anything but unfortunately I don't have $125 even for one day. This December I am getting a job when I turn 16 so every pay check I want to set aside a little money to get some teaching or attend a seminar. BTW Tim, I have tried contacting Dean Goldade who lives pretty close to me but I never got an e-mail back. If you could, please tell him that I am interested in paying for lessons next summer between the months of July and September.

Good luck with the seminar and I'm sorry I can't attend.

-Ryan

[Tim Tackett]

Ryan,
Give him a call at his school. 512 869 2615. Dean's one of the good guys.
Tim

[Rayzor08]

Thanks, I'll do that.

[Rayzor08]

Good post Joe. I agree with what you say. I really just can't see one of the Shamrocks taking Tommy out in standup fighting, but I could very well be wrong. As you said the Shamrocks have a big weight advantage so I see it more likely that they would take him out on the ground.

But, it doesn't really matter since Tommy was mature about it and refused the challenge. This thread was merely for speculation as I think it would be interesting to see how Tommy handled himself against a fighter of Shamrock calibre, and vice versa.

[Rafael]

Hello ,

I saw my name mentioned here. Mabey I can shed a little more light on this.

In this case Shamrock asked Carruthers if he wanted to fight and Carruthers told Shamrock he had nothing to prove and turned down the challenge. I am not sure verbatum but thats what I have read and heard from several good sources .

I don't think it would be a big deal and it is a good way to deal with an internet challenege but to be honest and real the way Carruthers writes one would have to question his character. He writes like he is a "world beater". On top of negative things he writes about almost everyone he speaks even worste about people. People are under the assumtion that he is friends with them when he is not ..Friends do not talk sh*t on friends. He does this a lot from what I hear.

People here should really pay attention to this . You can have all the talent in the world and still be a low down thug or an ass. Intresting that when someone stepped to him and challenged him ,he passes the offer and the tread gets deleated??

I know for a fact people he has spoken too have said he rips on just about everyone you can think of in JKD world or pretty much anything else. Thats great to have an opinion but hey when some stepped to him where was all this bravado? Went right out the window. I also think if you rip on somone it should be to their face not behind their back.

My problem with him is his derogatory comments he made about my teacher Pat Strong to which or just unfounded blabber. Just because he did not get it ,cannot do the things Pat does ( hey not a lot of people can!)and Pat did not give the 'farm" away in one seminar he went on to disrespect him on his public forum. This is just lowdown as hey if you have an opinion of something tell the person if there supposngly your friend. Their are people I've done seminars with who I think their what they teach is BS ...but I will tell them to their face and or keep it to myself.

His group had the nerve to rip Pat and paying for the seminar when infact Pat does not charge a dime for the seminars he does . Someone else made some money off that seminar and it was not Pat so thats another topic.


I personaly would not have a problem with Carruthers if this did not happen. But hey when someone talks as much as he does someday they may have to walk the walk ?

I may not be a good independent source but hey do your own research and you'll probably see what I mean? And you never see any good answers from him on his forum to people who are impressed with him. He kinda just blows them off...oh well to each their own.

Dude just needs to learn some tact and respect or things like that will keep happening to him .End of story.


RF-

[Geoff]

hello, rafael ive had many HELPFULL emails from your teacher,please send my kind regards.

take care 8)

[Rafael]

Geoff,

Thats great and anyone that knows Pat knows what a good man he is. People I think can understand my problem with this as I have a very close relationship teacher student with Him. He is like a second father to me.


He is just a great human being. He tries to help everyone he can . Thanks for the kind words and all the best to you.


RF-

[Tim Tackett]

I think that it's a good idea not to put other instructors down. I don't know Pat Strong very well, but he seems like a good guy. JKD would be better served if we all just helped each other out, but as usual when egos and money are involved we get this "I'm better than the other guy so you should study with me". I've been around JKD long enough to know that no one has the whole picture.

[Geoff]

maybe then...


"THE TRUE GIFT OFF ANY TYPE OFF TEACHER,MANAGER,INSTRUCTOR.
IS NOT NESERCERLY THE ONE WITH ALL THE KNOWLEGE,BUT!!! THE ONE WHO CAN HELP OTHERS BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES,AND WTHOUT THAT INNER BELIEF,KNOWLEDGE HAS NO MEANING"

[Rafael]

<If one is taken in by all this Jibe about Carruthers then one is daft enought to not see his approach, his manner may not be to a lot of people liking, or interned opinion, on his forum, but to be taken in by such things does not come from a balance mind and centered person. >

Well in my opinion one who speaks ill of everyone else but themself has a serious issues are not "balanced mindED or centered person"S.

Lets not forget who instigated what. He can write anything he wants or his own propaganda on his own forum but it will not go without consiquences ...hence the challenge from Shamrock for example.

Lets not forget I reacted out of his negative propaganda. If this slandering did not happen this would not have happened. I know many of Pats students and friends feel this way and approve of my comming forward with this. I just have the guts ,skill and talent to stand up to his bulling people around.

You do not know anything about me Joe so you can have your opinion. I respect most till I am disrespected.But if you cannot see shit talking and acting a thug against someone who does not deserve it as wrong then perhaps you yourself may not be balanced or centered or have some ethics to think about ? On top of that when someone just as brash as himself(tc) came for the challenge what happened?.. the bully was bullied.


Sorry there is just something ethicaly wrong about this whole issue with Pat vs TC ..so I guess If I am wrong about it then I am wrong.. I guess I am unbalanced not centered lol..I've been called worste before lol......Mabey I am just tired of that guy talking shit on my teacher??

hey your opinion ....I have mine. Just there are laws to this universe ..what you put in is what you will get back.

Oh and what do you mean great guy ? Is a great guy one who is jealous of others and speaks ill of perhaps everyone who he views as competetion? Wow what a great guy ...but explain to me why he is so great to you?? Does he help you out or is he your firiend?

RF-

[Rafael]

Joe I can agree with what your writing about. Good points.


RF-

[jeff]

Most MMAers are good streetfighters, and MMA is a good prep for some aspects of the street. However, an MMA fight and a street fight are two very different things.
BTW Strong has studied wing chun with Hawkins Chung, who is also Mr. Inosanto's wing chun/ tai chi teacher. His stuff is like DeMile's: more wing-chun oriented, but very effective.
It is really a matter of what works for the individual.

[Rafael]

Hello Jeff,

I am one of Pat's students here in Los Angeles. While a lot of Pat does is influnced by Hawkins ,it also equaly influnced by Bruce Lee. He also has come into his own with his twists on things. Serveral of the group including myself where JKD instructors prior to training with Pat. We also have experienced grapplers in our group (i've been doing it scince 1992).

Pat is good friends with the Gracie Family and does follow what is going on today and has his own unique way of handling a ground fight.

Just to let you know from some one who has trained with him regularly the last 5 years .

RF-

[jeff]

Yes, I have read quite a few articles by or about Sifu Strong; his background is very diverse and he has worked with many high-level people like Bong Soo Han and Rickson Gracie,and he has also coached a full-contact stickfighting champ. Strong clearly has a deep understanding of certain FMA arts. I think he does emphasize "wing chun basics" to a greater degree than many jkd people.
My point was the issue of MMA and reality combat. Some people assume that MMA is the only street reality, and that wing chun, jkd, etc. are somehow irrelevant to the problem of self-defense. Is MMA all there is? No. Wing chun and many variations of the Bruce Lee arts provide certain skills and attributes that are highly applicable to street situations. There are many technical reasons why wing chun men have not fared well in UFC and Extreme Combat. Also, the wing chun men who I have seen lose in events like UFC or Shidokan were hardly in top shape. If you are not in 100% top condition, you will probably lose an MMA fight or a K-1 type match. However, a wide variety of non-MMA material is certainly relevant to the street.

[Rafael]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Conditioning is a big factor in these events ..mabey 70% ??? Pat backbone of what he does is in fact WC structure..But then again those who knew Bruce well could attest to the same. Bruce was heavly influnced by WC or his thinking was. Till the day he died. This is what people who really knew him say and if you know what to look for you can see it was the backbone to what he did.

Not saying he was practicing the forms and doing the jong in 73 ,but it had ingrained in his training so much it was a part of what he did and I belive he took it another level with that thinking. WC thinking is ,how do you solve problems ? Bruce , and Pat are like that.That's my opinion of it.

RF-

[Rafael]

Well there you go ..your solving problems in your thinking or the way you write. Thats the WC way. MMA is not even about styles anymore. Thinking in terms of styles can get someone in trouble. Its about the person doing the style. Even in MMA they do not advertise as style vs style anymore. Everyone gets you have to be well rounded. Now who was saying this 20+years ago?


RF-

[jeff]

Classical wing chun works best when someone gives you foward pressure and attacks in such a way that you can "cut across" his tool(s).
In MMA, fighters generally stalk each other until they feel it is safe to etiher shoot or let the hands go. Wing chun, I think, is a counter-art; there are better answers for direct attack or ABD.
It is hard to use a counter-art against a counter-fighter.

The traditional wc stance is vulnerable to the shot. The answr is to use Muay thai as the basic striking art, and use circular footwork to counter the shot. WC could come into play when an opponent gives you a limb (or a bull-rush) to work with. And I have no doubt that if a wc man lifted weights, got in condition, and cross-trained in the MMA arts, he could be effective.
For a skinny guy to try to use pure wing chun against Zinoviev? Not goona work. However, in the street, aggressive thugs make mistakes that are tailor-made for wing chun

[NookyBooky]

Supposedly one of the Shamrocks challenged Tommy Carruthers to a fight or something like that, and Tommy refused (He does not accept challenges). Many people believe either Shamrock would wipe the floor with Tommy. I have not seen enough of either fighter to make an educated decision. I was wondering what you guys think about this?


My dad can beat up your dad.

[jeff]

The art of wing chun is a great art, and if I had to choose one classical style, wing chun is the one. However, wing chun does not, in my view, solve all problems or answer all questions. Wing Chun is a part of fighting, not all of fighting. If 12 years of the UFC has taught us anything, it is that one system cannot answer all questions. BTW I think if Bruce were alive today and coaching MMA combatants, Chuck Liddell would be his prototypical protege. Takedown defense, fakes, head movement, odd punches from strange angles, and knockout power with either hand. Bruce knew that the only way a striker can beat a grappler is to stop the shot and then konck him out.