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k831
09-27-2009, 05:59 PM
Just curious if anyone here can give me any feedback on this instructor (yes, I will go check it out myself, but it is a closed door class and I am trying to evaluate a handful of schools right now - time crunch);

http://www.fastblastjkd.com/Students.html

http://www.fastblastjkd.com/pictures.html

I'm certainly not looking to incite any bashing etc of an instructor, but being new to JKD, not really knowing who's who it helps to ask.

Also, I recognize good mechancis when I see them, but again, being unfamiliar whith certain aspects of JKD, it can be a little harder to tell for sure if an instructor "moves well" for this particular style.

Thanks.

Jim Riggio
09-27-2009, 06:46 PM
I do not know him but if you are in the Phoenix are, Richard Weiss is one of Tim's instructors who is very good. Also Rafael Figueroa who is certified under Pat Strong also teaches down there and is excellent.

k831
09-27-2009, 06:54 PM
I do not know him but if you are in the Phoenix are, Richard Weiss is one of Tim's instructors who is very good. Also Rafael Figueroa who is certified under Pat Strong also teaches down there and is excellent.

Thanks for the leads. I have been trying to track down Richard (as have others apparently) with no luck. As you said, I have heard nothing but good things about him.

I haven't heard of Rafael Figuero... I will do my best to look him up. Thanks for the tip, it is appreciated.

k831
09-28-2009, 09:14 AM
Surely out of 80+ views someone can give me feed back on this fella...even if its just your thoughts from his short vids. Trying to make a good decision about who to train with (my last attempt at studying JKD didn't go so well). If your thoughts/knowledge/review or guess are less than favorable, PM me rather than post it.

Tim Tackett
09-28-2009, 11:44 AM
Someone remind me to all Richard Weiss next Tuesday when I get back from camp to see if he is now taking students.
Tim

jmpainter
09-28-2009, 08:57 PM
This is total personal preference thing but I don't like the general vibe of his web pages.
Spends a bit too much time telling you how great and elite they are for my taste.

And closed door classes with no free classes.
They also used the word "Aloud" instead of "Allowed"
(Ok I'm just being a jerk now)

I could be completely off base and he might be fine.

Jmp

k831
09-28-2009, 11:01 PM
This is total personal preference thing but I don't like the general vibe of his web pages.
Spends a bit too much time telling you how great and elite they are for my taste.

And closed door classes with no free classes.
They also used the word "Aloud" instead of "Allowed"
(Ok I'm just being a jerk now)

I could be completely off base and he might be fine.

Jmp


Those are some of my concerns as well. He did decide I could come on a non-class day and work out with him for a half an hour, so that is helpful. I agree about the vibe.

I have been trying to learn a bit more about Mr. Poteet (which is tough, given the politics within JKD, I am used to this though, coming from Kenpo... haha)

Poteet's site is so vague that it is impossible to see how instructors under him got certified. I gather the JPJKD are pretty confident in their material, that is fine, but this guy could have taken the 20 hour course I have heard about. Not interested in learning from someone who took a crash course then some online classes. A little more transparency regarding the instructors training background would be nice.

What were your thoughts after watching the short video's?

D.Stachovak
09-29-2009, 02:08 AM
I'm not so sure. The vids scream more "Wing Chun" than JKD.

Just my opinion...

michaelwolf
09-29-2009, 03:58 AM
Surely out of 80+ views someone can give me feed back on this fella...even if its just your thoughts from his short vids. Trying to make a good decision about who to train with (my last attempt at studying JKD didn't go so well). If your thoughts/knowledge/review or guess are less than favorable, PM me rather than post it.

I don't think the question is as much what is thought of this instructor. How about I ask you the questions "what do you want from JKD? what is your idea of JKD? what does it mean to you?"

as for the instructor you linked, as he is certified under Jerry Poteet, you can read Sifu Poteet's books and get an idea of their presentation of JKD.

The website of this instructor is clear on their ideas about JKD

1. This extremely affective art comes from three arts all of which were modified by Sigung Bruce, Wing Chun Gung Fu, Western Boxing, and Fencing.

2. Many have misinterpreted the training, therefore creating their own personal expressions based on books, DVD training videos, etc. JKD is not everything mixed under the sun as many have perceived it to be , constantly adding techniques.

3. This goes against the true principles of the Art of Jeet Kune Do!

considering these points above you will not see Kali, Thai boxing, etc. in this class so if you are more 'concepts' oriented with your understanding of JKD you will likely be disappointed and this will not be productive training for you. Of course, with an empty cup any training can be good training.

That the website says "we will not water it down" in regard to JKD means that you will definitely be getting material actually taught by Bruce Lee while he was alive, at least their interpretation of it, meaning original JKD, Jun Fan JKD, whatever you want to call it. So again, if you are concepts oriented, this could perhaps be a bad choice. Although, in my mind, there can't be concepts without the foundations of Wing Chun, Jun Fan etc., no root=no decent branches...so even if you are concepts oriented, why not have an empty cup and give it a shot.

I have no issue with 'closed-door' classes, all my classes are closed-door and by invitation-only, meaning, anyone can contact my group about training but we are going to meet you first, interview you, and then make a decision whether to invite you to train with us or not, and anyone who moves beyond the basic class needs a unanimous vote from the existing members to get invited into the advanced class.

'the leading authority in the art of JKD in the state of Arizona" hmm, well, could be, perhaps not. Just go and find out for yourself! Actually, the truth is that everyone is a 'leading authority' regarding JKD because JKD originates from self-knowledge. No one is going to "teach you" JKD, they can perhaps, teach you techniques that illustrate the principles of JKD, but you need to work it out and discover it on your own. You know, all that "finger pointing to the moon" shit. (laughing)

I think the class times are short, just one hour? I think a good work out needs at least two hours myself. Especially if classes are combination of training/lecture.

so then, moving directly back to your question, you wrote

Surely out of 80+ views someone can give me feed back on this fella...even if its just your thoughts from his short vids. Trying to make a good decision about who to train with (my last attempt at studying JKD didn't go so well). If your thoughts/knowledge/review or guess are less than favorable, PM me rather than post it.

So, it is my opinion that if you want to make an informed decision about any individual you are considering training with you need to contemplate the following questions:

1. what aspect/approach to JKD am in interested in learning? does this instructor focus on or emphasize that area of training?

2. what do I want to receive from training? better fitness, self defense etc.

3. does this instructor physically express the art at a competent level?

4. does this instructor verbally communicate the essence of the art in a clear and well understood manner?

5. do the students seem to have decent skill levels?

6. if you can speak with students of this instructor, what do they enjoy or dislike about his classes and training methods?

7. what else can you think of for this list?

well then, enough feed back for you?

well, wait, one more thing. I personally will not make a decision about any instructor based on certification alone. As far as I care about it a certificate doesn't mean shit really. Can the individual express the art physically and explain it clearly and efficiently?

One of the best JKD guys I've ever met and studied with did not have any certification. He was an ass kicker though. He'd get in that peek-a-boo boxing stance he learned from Larry Hartsell and tear your ass up. I had the opportunity to see him in a real fight one time and I felt sorry for the guys giving him shit, he tore their asses up in no time at all. I don't recall all the details, probably two shots on each and it was over. He didn't get hit at all.

I recall a situation around here maybe a decade ago, perhaps longer, some dude who got his 'apprentice instructor' cert from a well known JKD instructor, was trash-talking other JKD people in the area and sending his students out to fight them and show them 'real JKD', yeah, well, that speaks a lot about that instructors qualifications doesn't it. Character is just as important in choosing an instructor, if not more so, than who they might be certified under. Just something else to think about.

The bottom line is, question everything, think for yourself, and make a decision based on what you know about yourself, your interests, needs etc.

Michael

k831
09-29-2009, 08:41 AM
Michael,

Thanks for a well thought out response!



as for the instructor you linked, as he is certified under Jerry Poteet

What does it take to be certified under Mr. Poteet? Could this be a weekend seminar certification?


considering these points above you will not see Kali, Thai boxing, etc. in this class so if you are more 'concepts' oriented with your understanding of JKD you will likely be disappointed and this will not be productive training for you.

This shouldn't be a problem. I am not looking for Kali or MT, just JKD. In fact, I have trained with several guys certified under Mr. Vunak. It wasn't what I was looking for. Not that they didn't have some good ideas, but I don't like keeping my elbows up by my head, and the whole hurry up and clinch approach I kept seeing wasn't my cup of tea. Not much by way of interception either.



No one is going to "teach you" JKD, they can perhaps, teach you techniques that illustrate the principles of JKD, but you need to work it out and discover it on your own. You know, all that "finger pointing to the moon" shit. (laughing)

I wouldn't want to miss "all that heavenly glory".

I think the class times are short, just one hour? I think a good work out needs at least two hours myself. Especially if classes are combination of training/lecture.

Agreed. At 100 bucks a month that seemed a little short.





1. what aspect/approach to JKD am in interested in learning? does this instructor focus on or emphasize that area of training?

My interest in studying JKD started when I was looking to replace Kenpo. I had moved and couldn't find a good Kenpo school in my area. (Unfortunately much of my beloved style has gone the way of the McDojo, I had a unique instructor in a unique association who taught very "progressive" Kenpo, all of Mr. Parkerís great ideas, none of the regimented crap so many turned it into). I wanted to learn something that fit nicely with what I had done for years, as opposed to something that would demand reworking a bunch of mechanics and principles.

I had done several martial arts before finding my Kenpo instructor, so I already had several checked off my mental list. So I started looking, I spent some time in a Muay Thai class, some MMA schools, Krav Maga etc.... Didn't fit what I was trying to accomplish.

I got to do a little JKD and it was a perfect fit - it ran seamless with everything I had done in Kenpo. The punches were delivered the same, the stance was the same, my Kenpo teacher taught us Kenpo techniques in a stream-lined "interception" way, dropping almost all the passive blocks. It fit.

It didn't work out, I moved again shortly after, and here I am. I have found a good Kenpo school, part of the association I was previously with, but scheduling doesn't allow me to train there more than once or twice a week. I want to train more than that, so JKD comes up again. Second reason, JKD offered me something I want to continue to learn. Functional, useable kicking.

I had learned Karate kicks. I started learning Muay Thai kicks. The way these kicks worked (the way they generated power, point of origin, chambering, footwork etc) didn't allow them to be used to "intercept" and many of the kicks were delivered to high targets. Well, if my intentions were to fight barefoot in a ring with rules, Muay Thai kicks would make sense. However, when I can kick to the groin or the liver or the knee... and a shoe is an option; suddenly kicking off the lead leg in a short, snappy, crisp JKD way makes perfect sense.

Kenpo doesn't kick much, and at 6'2" and pretty quick reflexes, I found during that short time, that I could intercept/enter with low line kicks really well, distrupting the opponents motion and setting me up to use my Kenpo hands even better. It was a perfect match for me. I felt like the simplicity and direct use of kicks and the angles of entry in JKD allowed me to use the Kenpo I already had even more effectively.

That is the bulk of what I want to continue with JKD training. JKD's kick boxing range, and the timing/combination of both to intercept/enter. I'm not trying to marginalize anything else taught, and I know there is more to it, but when I watch Jeremy Lynch demonstrating that scoop kick or hook kick and I see that stuff being actively used I think, yea, thatís what I don't fully have in my tool box that I really need. Chi sao is fine, but that isn't what I am looking to JKD for. I hope that makes sense.


2. what do I want to receive from training? better fitness, self defense etc.

Self defense.


3. does this instructor physically express the art at a competent level?

4. does this instructor verbally communicate the essence of the art in a clear and well understood manner?

5. do the students seem to have decent skill levels?

6. if you can speak with students of this instructor, what do they enjoy or dislike about his classes and training methods?



Looks like it may cost me 100 bucks to find out.


Fundamentally I agree with you about certifications. I don't care what is on the paper either, if the instructor can't do it for real. However, if I person touts as credentials their certification, then it does make me think "well, what does it take to get certified with that instructor?"

Something that put me off JKD a few years back was that the first couple of "JKD" guys I trained with were PFS guys who did a weekend seminar. You can guess how skilled they were after such a short time, but they were certified, and back then I didn't know the varying degrees of "certification" Mr. Vunak offered, so it was misleading.




The bottom line is, question everything, think for yourself, and make a decision based on what you know about yourself, your interests, needs etc.

Michael


Thanks to all for being a sounding-board through that process.

michaelwolf
09-29-2009, 09:21 AM
Michael,

Thanks for a well thought out response!



What does it take to be certified under Mr. Poteet? Could this be a weekend seminar certification?

no problem man. Not sure what Sifu Poteet's requirements are, so can not comment.

Regarding Paul Vunak's RAT. All respect to him of course, and I think his material is really good for teaching people to fight fast. That being said, I am not too comfortable myself with the high hands either. I prefer my hands lower. As for the overall principles of the RAT, I think they are great, IF, you miss the interception opportunity, or are just being overwhelmed. The idea of entry, pressure, termination of course, illustrates a prolonged engagement which is different from the idea of interception, but of course not everyone has their lead weapons refined and powerful enough that they are capable of ending a fight quickly and decisively. I think the RAT can be a good back-up plan. Part of Paul's reasoning for the elbow destruction with the RAT is to simplify things by not having to worry about and remember lots of different defenses, likewise for the blast and then HKE. But of course, the concept of interception is simplification itself. A JKD fighter doesn't pause or break or have to decide what methods to use because the first method we apply is TO HIT and intercept using the longest/closest tool to the most logical vital target to maximize its efficiency. So, JKD, true JKD, is simple like the RAT, even more simple and more highly refined.

It's not daily increase but daily decrease. Meaning, not accumulating many different styles, techniques, methods etc. but paring down your collection of tools and refining them for the greatest potential of applications. In other words, using the fewest things in the greatest number of applications. This is JKD as I see it.

The elbow destruction in the RAT, well yeah, its an interception, put the elbow in the path of the punch and let them hit it. Yeah, it hurts, it causes pain, but their busted hand is a secondary target, not a primary target like eyes, throat, groin, knee, so the question that can be asked is WHY DO IT? if you elbow destruct you still need to punch them to knock them out, so essentially you miss a beat by inserting the elbow destruction when you could have just put your finger in their eye, punched their nose, or kicked their groin.

Just a couple thoughts anyway, and I am not criticizing the RAT, I like it and have taught it in modified form, I just think it complicates things in some ways when there is a more simple approach.

k831
09-29-2009, 10:18 AM
As for the overall principles of the RAT, I think they are great, IF, you miss the interception opportunity, or are just being overwhelmed...of course not everyone has their lead weapons refined and powerful enough that they are capable of ending a fight quickly and decisively. I think the RAT can be a good back-up plan.

That makes sense. Part of my discontent with the PFS stuff at the time, was that I already had this covered.

What I was looking to improve (by adding or to shift the paradigm, refining and striping away) was this:

A JKD fighter doesn't pause or break or have to decide what methods to use because the first method we apply is TO HIT and intercept using the longest/closest tool to the most logical vital target to maximize its efficiency. So, JKD, true JKD, is simple... In other words, using the fewest things in the greatest number of applications. This is JKD as I see it.

I think you give a great definition there.

The elbow destruction in the RAT, well yeah, its an interception, put the elbow in the path of the punch and let them hit it. Yeah, it hurts, it causes pain, but their busted hand is a secondary target, not a primary target like eyes, throat, groin, knee, so the question that can be asked is WHY DO IT? if you elbow destruct you still need to punch them to knock them out, so essentially you miss a beat by inserting the elbow destruction when you could have just put your finger in their eye, punched their nose, or kicked their groin.

YES! That is exactly how I felt. I understood the argument as to why they still considered it "interception" but in that case, I think the definition of "interception" is pbeing stretched a bit.

In Kenpo we have a saying; "every block is a strike, and every strike is a block".

This is a similar notion. If an attacker throws a lead hand hook and I cut in and block ballistically (as we are supposed to in Kenpo) then my block is actually a strike to my opponents arm. Sure it will render his arm useless, sure, technically I intercepted him.

The difference between this and Paul's (FMA's) elbow destructions is that an elbow destruction is line on line blocking/striking. I am not comfortable with that, as I think it is very unlikely to accomplish line on line blocking in a real-time altercation. Contrast this to the Kenpo block/strike, and I have given myself an angle I cant miss, I see that as having a much higher percentage of success.

I brought this up to the PFS guys, and they said, "sure, that's why we often parry their punch into our elbow.."

I have seen Kali guys do that, fair enough that would likely increase the percentage of successful elbow destructions. However, now I have used/tied up two of my weapons to destroy one of his weapons - a secondary target.

That just didn't make sense to me...committing both hands to a target he could continue to fight without.

michaelwolf
09-29-2009, 11:11 AM
some things in particular that I really like about Vunak's stuff are the mass attack ideas, the lateral footwork, the eclipse principle, and of course the idea of "ya gotta go for the bite".

I like the thoughts you shared on blocking. In my group we actually do train some blocking. I see possibilities of an engagement in a descending order like this:

1. intercept first, take them out in one shot if possible

2. intercept and follow up with ABC

3. simultaneous block/attack followed by ABC

4. block then hit followed by ABC

5. you get hit then you HIT BACK

The reason that we do practice some block then hit scenarios in my group is that a block is a natural and instinctive movement. Flick toward someones eyes and the hand naturally comes up, poke at the stomach and a hand naturally goes down, untrained people of course. Someone trained will have a different response when training, but...if they have just been sucker punched and the next punch is coming at them a BLOCK is a very possible response, it happens. In a real fight, especially if you've been hit, your vision tunnels, the ears get ringing, fine motor skills are likely gone, and you're left with basic instinctive motions.

As far as blocking, yes, it can be a strike I agree, but, I tend to look at it like if it happens, that is okay, just keep going. We work hard blocks to the four corners and follow up with a hit, then flow into the straight blast, or we just block then flow into the straight blast, whichever works best based on our position.

While I think interception is the perfect scenario and the highest expression of the art, I accept the possibility of different scenarios playing out. I think in doing this we can keep our minds from entering into a "shit, that was wrong" phase on a subconscious level by doing something besides interception that can make us freeze up or pause, thus losing time in the engagement, or worse still, getting knocked out or killed while our brain reorients itself to interception mode.

Doesn't really matter to me if you intercept or block then hit, or if you GET hit, what matters is how you follow up with pressure and if you WIN! In a fight there is always the chance of being hit, the difference between victim and VICTORY is how you respond to whatever comes your way.

k831
09-29-2009, 01:54 PM
1. intercept first, take them out in one shot if possible

2. intercept and follow up with ABC

3. simultaneous block/attack followed by ABC

4. block then hit followed by ABC

5. you get hit then you HIT BACK



Seems like the logical progression.



The reason that we do practice some block then hit scenarios in my group is that a block is a natural and instinctive movement. Flick toward someones eyes and the hand naturally comes up, poke at the stomach and a hand naturally goes down, untrained people of course. Someone trained will have a different response when training, but...if they have just been sucker punched and the next punch is coming at them a BLOCK is a very possible response, it happens. In a real fight, especially if you've been hit, your vision tunnels, the ears get ringing, fine motor skills are likely gone, and you're left with basic instinctive motions.




What you wrote here made me think of this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_Ai8qT2s4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--74CtXS6Y4&feature=related

jmpainter
09-29-2009, 06:26 PM
Back to your original question....

You might want to get a hold of some Jerry Poteet Videos and see what you think.
I watched a few and really disliked a lot of the form that I saw demonstrated by him and his students on the Video.
Obviously there are LOTS of people that would disagree with me but for ME it was enough to put me off of paying for his online lesson videos which I was interested to see.

I'm sure there is plenty to be learned from him and he has always seemed like a cool guy from what I have seen. But if his certified instructors are teaching what I saw on the video I wouldn't want to train that way.

At the end of the day, there are plenty of ways to beat someone up.
Pick one and get REALLY good at it!

jmp

k831
09-29-2009, 06:34 PM
Back to your original question....

Ha, guilty of hijacking my own thread.


I watched a few and really disliked a lot of the form that I saw demonstrated by him and his students on the Video.
Obviously there are LOTS of people that would disagree with me but for ME it was enough to put me off of paying for his online lesson videos which I was interested to see...if his certified instructors are teaching what I saw on the video I wouldn't want to train that way.

jmp

Thanks for the feedback. Could you give me some specifics as to what you don't like, what flaws you saw in the form? Either here or via PM?

jmpainter
09-29-2009, 07:40 PM
Apologies to Sifu Tim if this is out of line on your Forum!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqFL6LnEPOk

That series of DVD's with Jason Scott Lee are the ones I saw.
Everyone on the Video was using the same odd technique.

Waving the hands around while kicking (to chamber and add torque)
Hands are not only down during kicking but WAY DOWN!
Like below the waist while closing the gap and delivering close range shin kicks.

The editing on the YouTube video covers up a lot of what I am talking about but at around :35 there is a quick shot of an Inverted Crescent Kick where it looks like she is in "Riverdance"

The scenarios and responses that the training partner gives during technique demonstrations were really unrealistic. Hint: Does anyone throw a Jab and then stand there with their arm hanging out while you hit them 5 times?

An Inverted Heel Hook Kick (where the Kicker's Back is to the opponent) to the face is shown as an intercept counter against a Jab.
Etc... Etc....

It put me in a bad mood :)

jmp

jmpainter
09-29-2009, 07:45 PM
And hey....maybe Bruce Lee got away with kicking like this but you would get dumped on the ground 95% of the time doing this:

(this a Jason Scott Lee photo)
http://www.jerrypoteet.com/2ndpages/biography.html

jmpainter
09-29-2009, 07:56 PM
If you look around, there are also lots of demos of Hopping Oblique Kicks used against a Jab (and the attacker is never throwing combinations and always stops his forward attack after his jab). And now that I think of it....most of the attackers were in Right Lead :)

The only people that are going to attack you with a single attack right lead and then freeze are going to be poorly trained JKD!

jmp

k831
09-29-2009, 08:14 PM
Good observations, thanks. I have rewatched some of the vids I had previously seen, and I watched the ones you linked - that first one you linked certainly was clear in terms of what you pointed out.

michaelwolf
09-30-2009, 04:08 AM
Just curious if anyone here can give me any feedback on this instructor

yeah, you thread hijacker!!!

getting back to the original question. Based on the video from his website, I think as far as the chi sao he is doing that:

1. he has decent forward pressure
2. he sticks and adheres well
3. he has good springing energy, he flows right in where there is a gap
4. he has good shifting to dissolve incoming pressure

I think it looks good. The few kicks shown at the end I think look good too. So, I would say if you are into this era of Jun Fan/JKD, then by all means go for it. I like the old-school stuff and prefer it over the later heavy fencing influenced stuff myself. I think it is much more functional for the streets. I like the heavy Wing Chun influence, I think that chi sao training benefits you far more than just being in that range, it develops a very intuitive feel that comes out no matter what range you are in.

I think overall, based on the video i watched on his site that this is good stuff.

k831
09-30-2009, 08:03 AM
So, I would say if you are into this era of Jun Fan/JKD, then by all means go for it. I like the old-school stuff and prefer it over the later heavy fencing influenced stuff myself. I think it is much more functional for the streets.




Thanks for the feedback! Can you explain the part I quoted? Not sure about "era's"... and are you saying this is the old school stuff, or the heavy fencing influenced stuff?

Thanks Michael.

jmpainter
09-30-2009, 11:45 AM
The eras....

The "Later Fencing" oriented stuff would be Ted Wong.
Stresses maintaining Range and Interception. Very much a "stick and move" Kickboxing mentality.

Poteet's material looks more like Jun Fan Gung Fu with Savate influenced Kicking.
He also uses the Wooden Dummy a lot.

D.Stachovak
09-30-2009, 01:47 PM
For goodness sakes at least TRY his stuff. We can give opinions all day but it's what YOU think that matters!

michaelwolf
09-30-2009, 03:37 PM
yeah, that would be the most simple direct path now wouldn't it?:D

k831
09-30-2009, 05:38 PM
For goodness sakes at least TRY his stuff. We can give opinions all day but it's what YOU think that matters!

Agreed, obviously it's essential to try something as part of the decision proccess. I've never intended to make a decision without checking it out in person, however, ther is more to doing my "due dilligence" than simply paying 100 bucks and trying it out for a month. Going in there with some good idea's as to what to look for, some context etc (part of what I am trying to gather, and have gathered, from you all) I gather as much info as I can on any subject, before I move forward.

Also, I take issue with the last line in your statement... I don't believe it's simply what I think that matters. What matters is that it is useable, functional stuff.

I've seen a lot of people waste time studying crap in Mcdojo's THINKING they were getting good training. What they thought won't matter when they need to defend themselves and they come up short.

Fortunately I have had some "real life" altercations that have given me perspective. I have also been through several schools and approaches, and that has given me some compare/contrast perspective. Enough to recognize and skip the real garbage. However, I'm not arrogant enough to assume that no one could give me good advice, usefull thoughts or point things out to me that might help me evaluate when I do go in. Hence, the question posted here, rather than just trying it out...

jmpainter
10-01-2009, 06:03 AM
Something to watch out for if they are very Gung Fu oriented...

This is a generalization, but many practitioners I have seen will tend to lack mobility and have a stubborn tendency to try to HOLD CONTROL of the Center Line.
They will also start to confuse Chi Sao with actual fighting.

This works fine as long as they only fight people from their school :)

jmp

D.Stachovak
10-01-2009, 08:38 AM
If you don't like it,it doesn't matter how functional it is,you won't go! If you like something enough,you'll find ways to functionalize it...

jmpainter
10-01-2009, 09:13 PM
Oh yeah...

Something I left out when I was complaining about Jerry Poteet's videos...

It isn't that I am saying that Jerry Poteet is BAD.
They just seem to be using Savate hand positions when kicking (if you have ever seen the Savate sketches in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do for instance).

I am just of the old fashioned opinion that standing in striking range with your hands down is never a good idea.
Your Mileage may vary.

jmp

D.Stachovak
10-02-2009, 01:50 AM
Modern Savate no longer uses those positions. When an exibition of historical Savate is done they may use them,but it's hands up all the time!

k831
10-06-2009, 03:07 PM
Someone remind me to all Richard Weiss next Tuesday when I get back from camp to see if he is now taking students.
Tim

:D Just a friendly reminder.

On a side note, I was able to track down a gentleman who trained with Mr. Weiss for 10 years or so. He has also lost contact with Richard, but he and I are going to try and get together and train. We are over an hour apart, but are going to try and make it work once a week.

Thanks for the help all.

Tim Tackett
10-06-2009, 03:54 PM
Remind me tomorrow to call Richard.

k831
10-07-2009, 08:06 AM
Remind me tomorrow to call Richard.

:wave: Good morning all.

BRCLRY
10-19-2009, 12:16 PM
Hey Everyone im new to this forum, and apparently the only one training under Jerry Poteet's lineage. I want to address the concerns that Jmpainter had.
The videos your seeing are one, and two step drills designed to introduce a technique and demonstrate the concept of interception, look for Octavio Quinteros videos especialy the one from the recent canada seminar for examples with footwork and timing. In other words of course no one stops and freezes after a jab, your just seeing a video of an introductory drill.

The inverted (River dance) hook kick, looks odd because she is sinking her weight and turning her hip out slightly in the direction of the hit, pretty standard mechanics so dont know what the confusion is about. most of the examples show a decent amount of wasted movement, again i would refer you to anything with Octavio in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KFmkqtMPd4

Jerry Poteet is from the Chinatown Era, which was not Jun Fan Gung Fu, the things you see resembling Gung Fu are likely the Chi Sau drills, and some of the kicks. I will say that ive noticed that most of what I see examples of are Ted Wong certified instructors. I dont think he teaches Chi Sau at all, and is more about foot work. The more we train our footwork the more it seems to resemble Ted Wong's, but we are not as oriented to kickboxing (hit, move out of range, come back hit again) we train the stationary straight first, and the tools off of it which makes us more inclined to infighting (again this would make us resemble Gung Fu more.)
We are very mobile, we controll our center line, and controll our opponents by attacking it. Im surprised our kicks look more like savate to you than the Ted Wong guys, because Ive often thought that our kicking lacked the variety that their Lineage has, but as I progress through the ranks, im learning that the drills we are doing are training attributes that in the moment provide for improvised kicking, while maintaining optimum mechanics to deliver force ie. leg moves first, using hip flexors, knee slightly passing the target, hip rotation/shift, contact while simultaineously staightening the knee, and whipping the HAND down. Whipping the hand down is done with the torso out of hand range, and is necessary for a speedy retraction. (speedy retraction is the key to transferring all of your force, the longer your in contact with the target, the longer it has to push back, so essentialy whipping the hand down aids the hip in retracting like in the whipping, or stationary lead.

K831 if your still interested in this school I would Highly recomend Sifu Garner, he is rooted in Wing Chun so he teaches great mechanics, but trust me this is not Jun Fan Gung Fu of the seatle era, this is JKD as it was taught in Sijo Bruce Lee's back yard to a group of around 5 including Jerry Poteet, there are many pictures to back this up. This JKD includes Chi Sau energy training, which Sijo Lee stopped teaching to Ted Wong (according to Ted Wong), but taught to other students in the Chinatown era. Ill train with you anytime, its hard to find willing partners, if you want to get an idea of what the art looks like in action.

k831
10-20-2009, 11:16 AM
BRCLRY,

Thanks for your comments in both my threads.




Jerry Poteet is from the Chinatown Era, which was not Jun Fan Gung Fu, the things you see resembling Gung Fu are likely the Chi Sau drills, and some of the kicks. I will say that ive noticed that most of what I see examples of are Ted Wong certified instructors. I donít think he teaches Chi Sau at all, and is more about foot work. The more we train our footwork the more it seems to resemble Ted Wong's, but we are not as oriented to kickboxing (hit, move out of range, come back hit again) we train the stationary straight first, and the tools off of it which makes us more inclined to infighting (again this would make us resemble Gung Fu more.)
We are very mobile, we control our center line, and control our opponents by attacking it.

This was very helpful. Thanks. I am not entirely sure what you mean by Ted Wong focusing more on footwork. Do you just mean they are more of a "peak-a-bo" boxing approach, "dancing" in and out a bit more? Are there specific differences you have seen structurally in the footwork? Does Mr. Poteet not feel that footwork is as important in a fight as Mr. Wong does?


K831 if your still interested in this school I would Highly recommend Sifu Garner, he is rooted in Wing Chun so he teaches great mechanics, but trust me this is not Jun Fan Gung Fu of the seatle era, this is JKD as it was taught in Sijo Bruce Lee's back yard to a group of around 5 including Jerry Poteet,

I appreciate your recommending him with a vote of confidence. Nice to know someone is familiar with him and can verify his training under Mr. Poteet. Do you know him personally, or just know of him via the association?

Perhaps you can help me clear a few things up. Part of what is difficult for me in gauging JKD schools at first glance is that the ranking structure is different than what I am used to. So, I don't know what it means to be "certified" under Jerry Poteet. Is there an equivalent of "certification" in a belt ranking system? Or in the levels (1,2,3) that most combatives use? What kind of time are we talking? My understanding is that Mr. Garner was with Jerry for about 5 years.

Ill train with you anytime, its hard to find willing partners, if you want to get an idea of what the art looks like in action.

Thank you for the offer. I am open to training with anyone, anytime I can. Are you in AZ?

BRCLRY
10-20-2009, 01:54 PM
I mean exactly that. They seem more inclined to the "Peak a boo" style. Our foot work is the same, except i got scolded for using a backwards pendulum. We train primarily with the stationary lead, which necessitates a lightly wider Bai Jong. Foot work is of course very important and we begin every class with it.

This is not just an association, I am Sifu Garner's student for the past two years. I am level 3 student, which only describes the curriculum i am familiar with so far. The ranks are attributes based, there are 10.
I think 5 years is right. Email me rtytrut@hotmail.com i can meet up tonight after 7 if you want, i live in phx

intercepting fists
10-20-2009, 02:30 PM
[QUOTE=BRCLRY;20250]

Jerry Poteet is from the Chinatown Era, which was not Jun Fan Gung Fu.




K831 if your still interested in this school I would Highly recomend Sifu Garner, he is rooted in Wing Chun so he teaches great mechanics, but trust me this is not Jun Fan Gung Fu of the seatle era, this is JKD as it was taught in Sijo Bruce Lee's back yard to a group of around 5 including Jerry Poteet, there are many pictures to back this up.





Actually Jun Fan Gung Fu is what was taught at the chinatown era school.

BRCLRY
10-20-2009, 04:00 PM
Actually Jun Fan Gung Fu is what was taught at the chinatown era school.

I thought Jun Fan Gung Fu was the modified Gung Fu Bruce taught in seattle, and this eventualy evolved into Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do? Either way, what Sifu Garner teaches is from the latter stages of JKD development, and we train the way it was taught to Sifu Poteet by Bruce, which is what I think will be a major difference between our lineage and other, for better or worse obviously.

k831
10-20-2009, 04:18 PM
I mean exactly that. They seem more inclined to the "Peak a boo" style. Our foot work is the same, except i got scolded for using a backwards pendulum. We train primarily with the stationary lead, which necessitates a lightly wider Bai Jong. Foot work is of course very important and we begin every class with it.

This is not just an association, I am Sifu Garner's student for the past two years. I am level 3 student, which only describes the curriculum i am familiar with so far. The ranks are attributes based, there are 10.
I think 5 years is right. Email me rtytrut@hotmail.com i can meet up tonight after 7 if you want, i live in phx

Email sent. Thanks.

intercepting fists
10-20-2009, 09:44 PM
Actually Jun Fan Gung Fu is what was taught at the chinatown era school.

I thought Jun Fan Gung Fu was the modified Gung Fu Bruce taught in seattle, and this eventualy evolved into Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do? Either way, what Sifu Garner teaches is from the latter stages of JKD development, and we train the way it was taught to Sifu Poteet by Bruce, which is what I think will be a major difference between our lineage and other, for better or worse obviously.


It is but bruce didnt just teach it in seattle he taught it in oakland and la chinatown. Jeet Kune Do is what he was pretty much working on behind the scenes with certain individuals he deemed worthy. Of course he did however evolve his Jun Fan Gung Fu from the seattle era to the la chinatown. He dropped and added things as he evolved further into the realm of efficiency and more power. However it was still jun fan gung fu and not jkd.

BRCLRY
10-22-2009, 09:33 AM
Thanks, thats a pretty important distinction, thanks for clearing that up.

intercepting fists
10-23-2009, 01:21 AM
no problem man


take care