PDA

View Full Version : BLF Future


Tim Tackett
11-20-2009, 12:07 PM
I just got this from Robert Kerbo. I think his ideas have a lot of merit.

Tim,
I was thinking about the BLF event and the lack of support. I was thinking that it would be good if JKD could be more united without requiring everybody to adhere to a single curriculum. This is what I came up with. What do you think?

Set up the ranking system similar to college degrees and state board certifications.

A real estate appraiser first completes his school... then he applies for licensing thru the State Board of appraisal. A Registered Nurse is much the same, first they finish Nursing school then they apply for license thru the State Board of Nursing.

With that in mind... JKD could be much the same. First you get rank thru an instructor that has lineage... then you apply for status with the BLF.

Example... If somebody trains with Ted Wong and eventually get certified as an instructor. At that time they would apply to the BLF for Instructor status specializing in TWJKD. If I then go on and train and get certified under another instructor. I could eventually apply for another specialization with the BLF. (It is interesting to note that you could even set up a JKD Concepts Specialization with this format.)

The BLF should define a very simple Core Curriculum. The curriculum should define general areas of knowledge and not get to specific (to me this is critical to get OBLS involvement if it's too specific they will not go for it). It should focus on things that are historically accurate and common to all JKD practitioners. Things like Economy of motion, Non-telegraphic motion, Lead St Punch, etc etc are included. But things like advanced trapping, advanced footwork, Hammer principle, etc etc are left to their respective Specialties.

There could be 3 Standard specializations and obtaining BLF recognition could be done by getting certified through any OBLS (or their instructors) that attended these schools.
Seattle
Oakland
L.A. Chinatown

and the potential for lots of other certifications. Especially in regards to the different camps.
Ted Wong
Joe Lewis
WNGJKD (Bremer)
etc etc

I believe that something like this has the potential to unite JKD but allow each "camp" their own independence.

Thanks,

Robert

BTW... I have sent this to a few other people as well.

idaho_jkd_club
11-23-2009, 09:05 AM
Sifu Tackett,

Thanks for the sharing the above. It sounds like the most comprehensive and logical solution I have heard yet. I hope that the other advisors on the board agree, and the core cirriculum is finished soon. Thank you for all of your effort in preserving the Art and Science of Jeet Kune Do.

God Bless...

Pantera
11-24-2009, 02:47 PM
It’s a great idea. Establish a common ground that can unify the JKD world will be very important for the credibility of JKD.
I have a question for sifu Tim Tackett. What is your opinion about the creation of a JKD team, controlled by the BLF, that could participate in the most important combat sport events of today, like K1 or UFC. JKD is for the street, but it would be possible to create a modified version for combat sports, without losing the essence of JKD (straight lead, fencing footwork, strong side forward, etc). The most popular martial arts of today achieved that level of popularity because of their success in combat sports, like for example Muay thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. We have great martial artists in JKD, or with a JKD background, that could contribute to such a project.

Tim Tackett
11-24-2009, 02:50 PM
It's a good idea, but I would really like it if we could wear shoes. A lot of what we do is based on wearing good hard shoes. It's how we attack and how we mainly defend.
I know that Jim McCann and Richie have had great success training guys and gals for the ring, but what we can use in the ring is somewhat limited. That said, there's still a lot we can do in the ring within the rules.

simplicity
11-25-2009, 06:00 AM
Sorry guys, but I'm not with the ideal of "big brotherism" ..... The person that stands in front of the individual knows the individual better than any "outside source"... They know how far this individual has come from, in their understanding and training... They hear their everyday pain, gains and everyday living problems.... There is a create bond between teacher and student... If a JKD Instructor decides this individual has put in the "time", it should only be up to the "Instructor" teaching if they a legit or not...Not anyone else...

These ideals and some others, will be the "true death of Jeet Kune Do" as we know it... Its kind or weird that the dealth of BL didn't kill his art, but by the people that came after him ... Many will leave all together or call what they do something else... I have been doing my part for years to help keep JKD alive one person at a time, not destroy it....

Something to think about....

Good luck with all that... (o_0)

Pantera
11-25-2009, 09:47 AM
As I said in another forum, in my opinion the real problem with the BLF is the person responsable for the Foundation. BLF needs a person with great vision, carisma, and with understanding of what is the world of martial arts of today in all it's perspectives.A person that can unify JKD and bring popularity and credibility to JKD as an art that is efficient in real combat. A strategic plan must be conceived. Work must be done to bring JKD to the vanguard of martial arts. It's not only about preserving the art, but also about expanding it.

idaho_jkd_club
11-26-2009, 11:14 AM
Hi guys,

I know there are many 1st and 2nd generation instructors who believe that the BLF should not be certifying instructors and that the BLF should only be concerned with controlling the licensing of the name, image, and likeness and of Bruce Lee. But maybe the problem lies within the name of “certification” and maybe should be changed to “recognition” instead. The idea outlined posted above by Tim Tackett written by Robert Kerbo seems to agree. The responsibility of actual certification of a JKD (JFJKD) practitioner will be still be left up to individual recognized instructors who then in turn will apply to the BLF who will then publicly “recognize” the new instructor as being certified from a legitimate source JKD.

I think that this is necessary for the art of JKD to strive and grow in the future. For all of you 2nd and 3rd generation instructors who have a problem with the above idea keep in mind. If a well-known 1st or 2nd gen instructor with a big name already certifies you i.e. Dan Inosanto, Ted Wong, Jerry Poteet, Richard Bustillo Chris Kent, Tim Tackett, etc. you don’t have to worry. It is easy for you to show your true lineage to Bruce Lee as the above instructors are well known in the Martial Arts community thanks to publications like Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu. But what about the next one or two generations of instructors under you? How can the public differentiate the qualifications of one of your instructors, instructors from someone who has a certification from a weekend seminar or the John Lopez’s of the (so called) JKD world? Let me explain further.

Dwight Woods read a great quote at the opening of the instructor’s conference at the BLF Seattle Seminar last year. It was something of the effect as “The purpose for the formation of clubs, or private groups is as much as to exclude and it is to include.” So the public recognition of qualified JKD instructors by some sort of authorized body is important. Not just for the sake of including a select few into a special group, but to make a distinct difference between a qualified certified instructor and the phony baloney guys out there who are either not qualified or teach something that isn’t really JKD at all.

For example, let’s say that ten years from now one of your instructors certifies one of his students who then in turn opens up a school. The school flourishes for a few years and then a new school opens up across town that also claims to teach JKD but at a lower rate. How will the public tell the difference between who is legitimate or actually qualified? You can say “Well my teacher is certified under John Doe, who is certified by Dwight Woods, who was certified by Dan Inosanto” that’s great. But the further you get away from Lee the less weight it holds and the harder it is for the public to understand or recognize. But, if you can say “Well my instructor is the only instructor in this (city, county, state, country) to be officially recognized by the Bruce Lee Foundation.” This will be easily respected and identified. It will also help for advertising purposes where you can legally print or state the above (i.e. officially recognized by the BLF).

I think the BLF understands the problem that the art is facing right now. They are looking for answers and hopefully something will be done soon. The Lee family feels the needs of people around the world who are interested in learning JKD but can’t find a qualified instructor near by. I think that some sort of organized, official body that can start a recognition process is the start to promoting the growth of the art and the acceptance of JKD as a legitimate Martial Art globally.

Sorry for the long windedness, but the above hit me while I was showering today and I just had to get it out.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving to all!

EB

john
11-26-2009, 12:33 PM
Look at the term Artist, now for a moment ponder the term in relation to music, art etc , it involves creation and all those created works are readily available to study by anyone, if Bruce Lee's works were freely available to everyone there would be no need for people to be making a living off his name. Painting strokes, techniques, images, music songs, chords, rifts, statues etc are all available for others to learn from.

So with that said to be a Martial Artist one should be creating, but so many are not. Some would say Bruce created 3 works, Seattle, Oakland, LA, others might say he created many mini works and these would be drills, movements etc, some forming part of a greater whole, others more self containing and complete in and of themselves. What ever way you look at it they are his creations, his songs, poems ( what ever floats your boat in respect to relating)

With his works available to all there would be no need for schools where the secrets (oh the secrets hahaha) are hidden. What we would be left with would be more towards true art, more towards the music and art "industries". Sure there could still be schools to learn "stuff" just like there are in said industries but the true talent would spring board off his works inspired to creation and performing their own uniqueness into our world just like all true artists, and to me, not speaking for Bruce but for me, if it were me, I would love this more than a clone of schools all marching machine like to the beat of the same drum. But hey thats me, my own view is if I cant stand before a person and sell myself without using someone else's success (read name) then I have nothing of real value to offer and it is this that I self impose upon myself all the time, and let me tell you it is so much easier to name drop and put up a sign than to say - here I am, just take a look at this, if you like it, if you think you can make use of it for yourself to improve your life, then, then we can work together and in the end names are not important because

D.Stachovak
11-27-2009, 04:04 AM
Recently I've had the great pleasure to have my eyes opened as to how trivial many of the "issues" within JKD really are. Folks,these are the same issues faced by BJJ and MMA schools right now. How do you compete with the frauds who have a bigger advertising budget than they have experience?

Of course,this stuff really doesn't affect me,I do the backyard thing. I don't charge,but I don't accept everyone either...

In the end,JKD is about self expression,it's not a product or an item,or a service to be sold. It is the product of sweat and hard work and intellectual study. If need be I could call it "Fred",and it would be exactly the same thing. Guys,we're turning a fluid LIVING art into an institution and museum piece! "JKD can be taught,but it cannot be standardized".

There will always be bandwagon jumpers and frauds,so what?

Tim Tackett
11-27-2009, 08:42 AM
Would it be OK to have a list of just what Bruce taught + the principles stressed during the Seattle, Oakland, and L.A. years? This is what the BLF is planning to do.

D.Stachovak
11-27-2009, 09:40 AM
Would it be OK to have a list of just what Bruce taught + the principles stressed during the Seattle, Oakland, and L.A. years? This is what the BLF is planning to do.

I suppose this is part of all JKDers training at some point. But who's to say what you SHOULD know? What about Paul Vunak's RAT guys who don't have the same technical foundation as your guys,but nontheless have a true "Bruce" lineage? Heck,BROCK LESNAR has a legit JKD lineage! Bruce Lee>Dan Inosanto>Greg Nelson & Eric Paulson>Brock Lesnar...

I am not for or against such an idea,just that the idea comes with it's own set of dangers as well. Is the BLF really relevant to most JKDers? Would,say,all of Dan's instructors submit to this? If Dan Inosanto,and Paul Vunak were on board you'd have 80% of the JKD people involved. But where does this leave more "independent" JKDers? I'm sure this would cost $$$ and possibly involve some sort of travel. I really don't think a list is doing anyone any harm,as long as it's for historical purposes. But if any of it is a requirement,it's just another martial arts governing body.

Tim Tackett
11-27-2009, 10:15 AM
No one has to submit to anything. It would just let people know exactly what Bruce taught. The BLF wants only what Bruce taught to be know as Jun Fan JKD. Anything added would be something like Vunak's JKD. Feel free to use JKD. The BLF wants the name JFJKD to be reserved to only what Bruce Lee taught.

D.Stachovak
11-28-2009, 03:41 AM
Intellectually I know it is ok,but I'm still not completely comfortable with the BLF. I have a conflicted view on this,since it will be impossible to please everybody. I know why this is important though,you'd hate to see the principles die. I've trained with 2 different JKD instructors who NEVER mentioned the 5 ways of attack. I recently got to check out Dan Inosanto's teaching (via video) and he referenced the 5 ways for everything,even applying them to arts other than JKD. I am planning on checking out his seminar @ Rick Faye's in Feb.

I really think the BLF needs to be either a JF/JKD foundation OR a fan organization. Not both together. Getting an approval from the "JKD bowling" organization won't really help anybody.

Would it be possible to post an outline of such a "eras" list and the "minimum requirements"(or whatever it was) list?

Good luck Tim,I know it really bothers you to see interest in JKD go down,as well as the low quality of some practitioners. I hope JKD as a whole can preserve what's worth preserving.

Tim Tackett
11-28-2009, 09:15 AM
I have such a list, but don't want to publish them until finalized by the BLF. I agree that the the BLF should have a both fan base group and a JKD one that are separate.
The whole bowling thing thing has been misrepresented on some forums. It was on Friday night when people were arriving.It was merely as way to get to know each other and have a friendly competition that had nothing to do with martial arts. This allowed everyone at least 1 night to set their egos aside and have some fun.
There has also been some fun made of the special fundraising dinner with Shannon and Linda.
People seem to confuse the BLF with Bruce Lee Enterprises. The BLF is as non-profit organization and needs to raise money for some very important projects. Any money raised by this dinner goes to that and not the Lee family. If people are really interested in things like preserving Bruce's notes, they should be more supportive of the BLF's fundraising ideas instead of making fun of them.

D.Stachovak
11-28-2009, 09:20 AM
I have such a list, but don't want to publish them until finalized by the BLF. I agree that the the BLF should have a both fan base group and a JKD one that are separate.
The whole bowling thing thing has been misrepresented on some forums. It was on Friday night when people were arriving.It was merely as way to get to know each other and have a friendly competition that had nothing to do with martial arts. This allowed everyone at least 1 night to set their egos aside and have some fun.

I know,but it's really hard to let the bowling go-the jokes write themselves!

Keep us all posted Tim,it would be good to have something that brings us all together rather than pushes us apart!

Tim Tackett
11-28-2009, 11:14 AM
I will try and keep everyone informed.

idaho_jkd_club
11-30-2009, 06:46 PM
I think its kind of silly that to believe that if a list of the core curriculum of JKD exist, that this will stifle anyone's creativity. That because of a such list that the growth of the art or and individual will stop and become dead. True, some may wish to only perform and teach the techniques listed, but I think any intelligent martial artist who has read any of Lee's notes will not.

I myself choose to mainly teach what has been taught to me as JKD, as Sijo Lee taught, while still alive. But, I have been lucky to have also learned under other great, non-JKD martial artists. I have incorporated some techniques from these individuals into my own arsenal such as: the low palm hook smash and spinning backfist from Bas Rutten and the Heal Hook from Marco Ruas to list a few. Personally, I find them very effective and useful. But, when I teach them, I give credit to the ones who taught me and don't call them "JKD" moves either.

"Learn the principle, abide by the principle and then dissolve the principle", right? But too many people want to skip right to step three and dissolve the principle. They add whatever techniques they want or entire arts all together and still call it JKD thinking they are sticking to Lee's ideals or concepts. Therefore a comprehensive list of what techniques Lee found valid (upon scientific experimentation) and taught are valuable and needed.

Keep in mind, If your goal is to be better prepared for self defense or simply street fights. Then I believe Sifu Tommy Carruthers approach of mastering a few simple, effective techniques (finger jab, groin kick, stop kick, take down defense etc.) is the right approach. Choose a few simple techniques, practice them and drill them to perfection (a daily decrease not increase). But, if your goal is to be a full fledged JKD instructor, then you have take what Sifu Kent reminds us of. "You have to be able to preform all of the (jkd) techniques to a high level of proficiency. You can't discard some techniques simply because you don't like them or can't make them work for you".

Therefore a comprehensive list of techniques are valid and necessary. As they are in any form of Martial Art. And a list of people who have proven they know, can perform, and teach the techniques listed is helpful for future students and the growth of this art.

Nhan Khuong
12-04-2009, 08:23 PM
I think its kind of silly that to believe that if a list of the core curriculum of JKD exist, that this will stifle anyone's creativity. That because of a such list that the growth of the art or and individual will stop and become dead. True, some may wish to only perform and teach the techniques listed, but I think any intelligent martial artist who has read any of Lee's notes will not.

I myself choose to mainly teach what has been taught to me as JKD, as Sijo Lee taught, while still alive. But, I have been lucky to have also learned under other great, non-JKD martial artists. I have incorporated some techniques from these individuals into my own arsenal such as: the low palm hook smash and spinning backfist from Bas Rutten and the Heal Hook from Marco Ruas to list a few. Personally, I find them very effective and useful. But, when I teach them, I give credit to the ones who taught me and don't call them "JKD" moves either.

"Learn the principle, abide by the principle and then dissolve the principle", right? But too many people want to skip right to step three and dissolve the principle. They add whatever techniques they want or entire arts all together and still call it JKD thinking they are sticking to Lee's ideals or concepts. Therefore a comprehensive list of what techniques Lee found valid (upon scientific experimentation) and taught are valuable and needed.

Keep in mind, If your goal is to be better prepared for self defense or simply street fights. Then I believe Sifu Tommy Carruthers approach of mastering a few simple, effective techniques (finger jab, groin kick, stop kick, take down defense etc.) is the right approach. Choose a few simple techniques, practice them and drill them to perfection (a daily decrease not increase). But, if your goal is to be a full fledged JKD instructor, then you have take what Sifu Kent reminds us of. "You have to be able to preform all of the (jkd) techniques to a high level of proficiency. You can't discard some techniques simply because you don't like them or can't make them work for you".

Therefore a comprehensive list of techniques are valid and necessary. As they are in any form of Martial Art. And a list of people who have proven they know, can perform, and teach the techniques listed is helpful for future students and the growth of this art.

Well said. I really don't understand all this resistance to a core JKD curriculum.

khand50
12-05-2009, 06:22 AM
it would seem to me that one reason for resistance is the fear that all jkd practitioners would have to become little jkd robots. that the standard or the core becomes the way. i think alot of people feel that they understand jkd as defined by the philosophy of freedom and existing in the here and now that lee seemed to promote, and that having a core would limit that freedom.
from what i have learned in the past few years after being exposed to new ideas regarding jkd, i dont feel that having a core is limiting. i feel that it is essential to one's training to have a core of fundamental physical tools that you use to develop your own attributes. you have to start from somewhere.
the other concern is that the blf would limit the credibility of practitioners and instructors who refuse to join. that not joining would put a person on the outside and maybe create more problems of infighting. it happens in every art that becomes established. even just that, i think many who have had the freedom of jkd burned into their minds, reject that it could end up becoming an established system. and that in essence would go against lee's own philosophy, that man, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system.
as long as jkd doesnt ultimately trap itself then having a core curriculum should be ok. but what is the goal of the blf, really? is it control? control over who teaches and what should be taught? is it money? do they want dues paid to them if you join and become established as an instructor under them? more than worry about the core curriculum, those are questions to be asked. and if an instructor doesnt join, is he blackballed by the blf? (openly or behind closed doors) anytime an "organization" steps in to police things, people become suspect.
these are just some of the things i have thought that people might question.

Tim Tackett
12-05-2009, 10:10 AM
All it is is a list of the technical principles that Bruce taught + all of the techniques that he taught in Seattle, Oakland and L.A.. Such a list would stop all the BS about what he did or didn't teach. Things like the crescent kick, the jam and the hammer are in there. Things like strong hand lead is on there. No one should be bound by what's on that list, but they could no longer say, "Bruce didn't teach this".

Stombaugh
12-05-2009, 01:00 PM
Bruce Lee is recognized as a genius in the martial arts, so the BLF's presentation of his art is no different than how the music world puts forth the works of Jimi Hendrix or how the movie business packages the films of Marlon Brando. We know the totality of Brando's film career. There has never been a debate about which movies Brando starred in or which character he played in a particular film. Presenting the totality of Bruce Lee's art will bring closure to those who embrace historical accuracy and provide a roadmap for a new generation of JKD students.

Leam
01-06-2010, 04:07 PM
Presenting the totality of Bruce Lee's art will bring closure to those who embrace historical accuracy and provide a roadmap for a new generation of JKD students.

Err...new guy again. I thought Bruce Lee was pretty much against the historical accuracy thing? If he was still alive do you think his art now would bear a lot of resemblance to what it was decades ago?

Leam

Stombaugh
01-07-2010, 11:41 AM
Leam: Bruce Lee is no longer with us, so your argument is irrelevant. The issue is to preserve what Lee taught in his lifetime. How many times do we have to hear about people claiming to teach "authentic" JFGF/JKD when the truth of the matter is that they're teaching techniques that were not a part of the curriculum in the Seattle, Oakland, and/or Chinatown kwoons? In my opinion, the BLF's quest for historical accuracy is admirable and long overdue.

Leam
01-07-2010, 02:37 PM
Stombaugh, I'd have to politely disagree. What Bruce Lee taught trancends technique. There is value in tracking what he taught in different phases, but it would seem to be more historical record than a regimen to practice. If Bruce Lee himself moved away from something in an early phase to something in a later phase, why should we keep it?

That said, there probably are "JKD Instructors" who don't have a clue about the actual techniques or the philosophies behind them. Locally, sort of, one group was telling me about a "JKD guy" who uses moves from the movies in class. Even the sounds! That, we both probably agree, is absurd.

Brando's films and the music of Hendrix don't really do much for my growth. Reading comments Bruce Lee made years ago does challenge me to grow today and will challenge me tomorrow. That's part of the genius we both recognize; Bruce Lee ventured into territory most of us barely perceive.

Leam

SlantRight
12-12-2010, 12:47 PM
That said, there probably are "JKD Instructors" who don't have a clue about the actual techniques or the philosophies behind them. Locally, sort of, one group was telling me about a "JKD guy" who uses moves from the movies in class. Even the sounds! That, we both probably agree, is absurd.

Leam

That's exactly why there should be some official oversight & a certification program. Someone stated earlier in this thread that there are those out there with large advertising budgets--with little to no JKD experience at all--who are promoting themselves as "JKD Instructors." These individuals are interested in nothing but profit.

Some are very good martial artists, however, they're frauds & mislead their students & the public. They're opportunists who USE the JKD name in an attempt to tie themselves to Bruce Lee.

beatdaline
12-13-2010, 07:08 AM
Sifu Tim
I think your idea has a lot of merit.
Will it be too much to also ask for Guru Dan Inosantos input on this matter?
He is after all the highest qualified individual still with us. Or would he turn down the offer.
Also as stated by someone and I agree, Sijo Lee's teachings transended tehniques. In which case would it be a good idea to include training methods used in each era in this syllabus?

just interested
Kevin

Tim Tackett
12-13-2010, 09:07 AM
It out be great if Sifu Inosanto would be a part of the curriculum. We need to get it done while we still can.

SlantRight
12-13-2010, 04:50 PM
Sifu Tim
I think your idea has a lot of merit.
Will it be too much to also ask for Guru Dan Inosantos input on this matter?
He is after all the highest qualified individual still with us. Or would he turn down the offer.
Also as stated by someone and I agree, Sijo Lee's teachings transended tehniques. In which case would it be a good idea to include training methods used in each era in this syllabus?

just interested
Kevin

Check it out at about 2:08

"Some people ask me, can you teach it? Yes, I can teach it. And they ask me, can you standardize it? No, you can't standarize it."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_9gHdjDdfI&NR=1

SlantRight
12-13-2010, 08:37 PM
There could be 3 Standard specializations and obtaining BLF recognition could be done by getting certified through any OBLS (or their instructors) that attended these schools.
Seattle
Oakland
L.A. Chinatown

and the potential for lots of other certifications. Especially in regards to the different camps.
Ted Wong
Joe Lewis
WNGJKD (Bremer)
etc etc

I believe that something like this has the potential to unite JKD but allow each "camp" their own independence.

If you listen to this clip @ 3:20 to 4:35...Oakland doesn't have any certified instructors & Seattle has very few.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atoqg78HSdg

Personally, I hope the BLF gets the JFJKD Manuel done next year as projected.

Omnislash
01-06-2011, 04:01 PM
I would agree on making this list, will make things alot easier for the serious JFJKD and BL fan, who wants to preserve and protect, and develop from _there_ in the future.
Even alot of the stuff you find in the books "by" Bruce Lee, such as Tao of Jeet Kune Do, and others - there is alot of stuff that was just personal notes, and not a certainty that it was "JKD".
And whats the problem with having curriculum from all 3 eras?
It just makes it easier for people to see the evolution of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.

And I dont see the problem with recognition by BLF either - as this will erase all the frauds.
If you have a real lineage - it would'nt be a problem.
And if you are all about "individuals" are more important than the system, why should they even BOTHER wether they are recognized or not ?

Im really excited for this "manual" Sifu Tim.
If people are gonna get bound by this "manual" then they probably already are bound.

Tor-Arne